A few LOTR questions

Cafe Society
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Figured i better satisfy my curiosity before my posting priviliges expire and i lose my chance to ask geekier geeks than me :). Anyways, there are a few things i was never quite clear on:

1: What ever happened to the Hobbits in the human era? I know the elves eventually all passed over the sea and if im not mistaken the dwarves went extinct from too many wars, lack of women, and alot of those few women refusing to take a mate. But of the fate of the hobbits i know nothing.

2: The ringwraiths where suposed to be “great kings of men”, i know the witch king was king of Angmar and they warred against Arnor, but what about the rest? for being “great kings” not much is known about their suposed kingdoms.

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  1. The conceit expressed in the prologue to “The Lord of the Rings” is that Hobbits survived at least up to the time that book was published, although in reduced circumstances and hidden from “the Big Folk”.

  2. The Lord of the Nazgu, a.k.a. Captain of Despair, was already a wraith when he became the Witch-King of Angmar. Most of the ringwraiths had no known names or histories. Maybe that’s symbolic of having lost their identities and become extensions of Sauron’s wills. Maybe they’re considered so accursed their names have been stricken from the chronicles. Or maybe Tolkien never got around to writing around about them. At least some of them were Numenoreans, like the ancestors of Aragorn and Denethor, but the only ringwraith to have a “semi-canonical” name (invented by Tolkien but not appearing in LOTR) is the second in command, Khamul the Shadow of the East, but nothing is known of his life before falling to the Ring.

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Nazgu? Nazgûl!

Sauron had another servant (who didn’t make it into the film) known simply as the Mouth of Sauron. He was a Numenorean who had worshipped Sauron and become a sorceror. His face was like a skull and no one knew his name, for he himself had forgotten it.

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The second-in-charge Nazgul is apparantly the only one named by Tolkien - from the Encyclopedia of Arda FAQ

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In addition: The vibe you get off Tolkien about the ‘diminished’ Hobbits that survive into modern times is that of quasi-mythological ‘wee folk’ who are able to disappear more or less at will because we have become even more big and clumsy and clued out about the natural world around us. It is very ‘book-endish’ that Tolkien mentions the fact that hobbits are still with us at the beginning of the Hobbit and then shows their ‘golden age’ at the end of LotR. Our age and the wages of our sins features strongly in Tolkien’s attitude about man and progress.

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Kind of a hijack, but related to “kings of men”, so I thought I could get away with it…

How come none of Aragorn’s forefathers claimed the throne of Gondor? They were all heirs of Isildur, weren’t they? What did they all do, anyway?

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Just keeping this spot warm until Qadgop gets here…

Aragorn was descended from the kings of the North Kingdom of Arnor, which was founded by Isildur’s brother Anarion. The last king of Arnor became the Chief of the Dunedain when his kingdom was overrun by Angmar; but his claim to the throne of Gondor was not considered valid for some reason (didn’t file his paperwork on time, or somesuch).

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Basically, there was a disagreement over the rules of succession and the Northern kings/chieftains were not in a position to assert their claim. For centuries, Gondor was the mightiest kingdom of men in the West and in the hands of very strong rulers. (The stewards ruled in place of a king, but weren’t likely to turn control over to any ruffian who wondered in.)

Aragorn was a throwback to the kings of ancient Numenor. In gaming terms, he gets substantial bonuses for wisdom, strength, and charisma. (Tolkien describes him as grim to look upon, but able to reveal his true kingly nature.) He proves himself in battle on the side of Gondor just when its position appears most desparate and the line of stewards seems to have failed spectacularly. Yet, he doesn’t enter the city to claim the throne until invited. He’s a diplomat as well as a great warrior.

In short, it’s a case of the right man at the right time.

But Aragorn’s people, the rangers, were not idle before this. They struggled to protect northern lands against evil foes, but their efforts were mostly unknown to most Men (and Hobbits).

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Among other things, they guarded the borders of the Shire (at Gandalf’s request).

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Isn’t Aragorn is referred to as “The Heir of Isildur?”

From what I remember, both kingdoms were established by Elendil and his sons together, but Anarion’s descendants ruled Gondor, while Isildur’s descendants ruled Arnor.

I don’t remember the exact timeline, but Anarion died during the siege of Barad Dur, and Isildur died shortly after the battle was won. His son was only a child at that time, and could not take up the kingship, so Anarion’s son took the kingship of Gondor, and Isildur’s son (what are their names?) then took up the kingship of Arnor when he came of age. So, without deliberate intent, two kingships were formed.

I don’t know why Anarion’s son didn’t give up the High Kingship to Isildur’s son when he came of age.

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I think they just continued the tradition of two Kings, and two Kingdoms after the death of Anarion, and, shortly thereafter, the death of Isildur. Isildur actually ruled Godor for a couple years, but then rode off with his sons to take care of the North Kingdom, and put Meneldil, Anarion’s son, in charge of Gondor. As we all know, Isildur was ambushed on the way to Arnor and killed, as were his three eldest sons. Only Valandil survived, because he was too young to go South for the war of the Last Alliance against Sauron, and thus remained with the elves in Imladris. One of Isildur’s soldiers, upon orders from Isildur when it seemed the ambush might prove deadly for all, took some of the effects of his House (ring of Barahir, etc.) to Imladris to be handed down to Valandil, who, when of age, took up kingship of the Northern Kingdom.

The last in the line of Meneldil was Earnur, who rode to Minas Morgul in open challenge to the Witch King, and never returned. As he left no heir, the line of kings in Gondor was broken, and so the Stewards took up rule, waiting in the faint hope that one of the line of Elendil mights return and restore the Kingship.

In Arnor, squabbling led to the division of the Northern Kingdom into three sometimes contentious realms, each of which was overthrown eventually by outside foes. The last remnant of Arnor to stand was Arthedain, but was completely overrun by the Witch King and his forces during the rule of Arvedui. Fleeing with the Palantir of Amon Sul, he was stranded in the cold wastes of Forochel with the Lossoth, before a ship from Lindon came to rescue him. Sadly, the ship was crushed by an ice floe, Arvedui drowned, and the Palantir was lost. Arvedui’s son Aranath was taking refuge in Imladris, but was without a kingdom to inherit, as Arthedain was destroyed. Instead he became the chieftain of the remnant of the Dunedain of the North, and, with the loss of Earnur, his line only preserved the blood of Elendil.

Although the Witch King and his forces were eventually driven out of Eriador, the Dunedain did not take up rule of the North Kingdom (what little was left of its people, that is) but instead lived on the fringes of new settlements, like the Shire, as Rangers. Elrond prohesized that only when Isildur’s Bane was found again would the Kingship of both Gondor and Arnor be restored to descendants of Elendil. And that is what happened, when, after the destruction of the Ring, the Heir of Isildur, Aragorn Elessar, took the throne with queen Undomiel.

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Just to pad out and extend loopydude’s excellent exposition (and because I like to hear myself type):

Elendil and his sons, Ilsildur and Anarion sailed away from the wreck of Numenor. Elendil was the last lord of the Andunië, a royal line descended from Elros, brother of Elrond and first king of Numenor.

Elendil landed in the north, at the Grey Havens by Cirdan and Gil-Galad the Elven king. There he founded the northern realm of Arnor.

Isildur and Anarion landed in the south, by the Pelagir where many of the “faithful” of Numenor had fled during their oppression by the king of Numenor. These people were loyal to the Valar and to the lord of the Andunië. There Isildur and Anarion founded the realm of Gondor. Isildur’s city was Minas Ithil (later Minas Morgul) and Anarion’s city was Minas Anor (later Minas Tirith). Together they ruled in Osgiliath, where they had thrones set side by side.

But they acknowledged their father Elendil as the High King of both Arnor and Gondor and of all peoples of the west. When Elendil died in battle with Sauron, Isildur (being the elder son) inherited this title. His brother Anarion had died during the Siege of the Barad-dur. Isildur stayed in Gondor for a time, instructing his nephew Meneldil in the arts of ruling, then went north to take up the scepter of Annuminas, token of the High King.

But Isildur never made it north. He was slain, along with his 3 eldest sons. It fell to his young son Valandil to eventually take the scepter of Annuminas. But Valandil never tried to exercise lordship over Gondor and ruled as king of Arnor only, not as High King. The two kingdoms remained allied, but each had their own ruler.

Indeed, no king of Arnor (or Arthedain, it’s successor state) ever tried to claim the kingship of Gondor until Arvedui Last-King did so, upon the death of Ondoher, I think. He was married to Ondoher’s daughter, Firiel. And he raised the issue of the High Kingship, stating that he was the holder of that title.

But the nobles of Gondor rejected that claim, and they appointed Earnil king. He was also of the line of Anarion. Arvedui accepted their decision, and even sent to Earnil for help when the north kingdom began to founder. Help came, albeit too late to save Arvedui. It did help his son, though.

It was only with Aragorn that the High Kingship was again taken up. Notably by a descendant of both Isildur (from father to son unbroken) and Anarion (via Firiel, daughter of Ondoher and wife of Arvedui).

JRRT implies that there were other descendants of Elendil possibly still out there. After the kin-strife of Gondor their numbers were reduced by murder, but many packed up and headed to the hinterlands, or renounced their claims. But most of these lines were interwoven with those of non-numenorians, and considered to be less pure. Tho one notable king of Gondor was only half-numenorian and did ok for himself.

Even so, there were probably a few mortal descendants of Luthien still banging around, outside of the House of Elessar Telcontar.

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What happened to the rings of the the Nazgul?

Did they fall to the ground? Disappear? Move in together in a small apartment in New Jersy and become N’Synch?

The 3 rings survived, just lost power.

Dragons got the Dwarves rings, right?

But, where are these Rings of Men? Were they even still physical in form? Or were they so much a part of the Nazgul and the One that they were destroyed too?

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The surviving dwarf rings and the rings of the Nazgul were held by Sauron, and probably bought it when he did.

Good ring info here: faq of the rings

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Gotta love that Qadgop! :slight_smile:

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Ah… I see I wasn’t the only person confused by the line. “The Nine the Nazgûl keep.”

But this point

helps clear things up.

Apparantly, Gandalf misspoke.

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I believe Smaug was the last dragon. He is killed in The Hobbit. The creatures the Nazgul ride are not dragons but “fell beasts of the air”. From Tolkien’s descriptions of them, they may actually be a corrupted variety of dinosaur. IIRC ‘They were the last of their kind. Ages ago, Sauron had found a nest of them and fed the hatchling foul meats and warped them with his darkness.’

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insert smacky here.

I misread that as ‘Dragons got the dwarves, right?’ and thought it was a question about the final fate of the race of Thorin Bluecrossblueshield

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Since we’re all here…

I’ve been looking for a compilation, if one should exist, of all of JRRT’s dragon stories.

Anyone?

ftr, I never really liked his dwarves too much. Except where they interact with the dragons. I loves me some dragons, I’ll tell you whut!

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No such thing exists as far as I know.

Basically you’ve got Glaurung (aka Glorund, Glomund in earlier versions) and a lot of telling of his tale vs. Turin in “Silmarillion” and "Unfinished Tales " along with lots of early versions of the story in HOMES.

You’ve got Ancalagon the Black in his only appearance vs. Earendil in the War of Wrath from Sil and HOMES versions

You’ve got lots and lots of generic dragons in the early version of the Fall of Gondolin from HOMES #1

You’ve got about 3 lines about Scatha the worm in LOTR, slain by Fram son of Frumgar up thar a ways in the Grey mountains. This led to complications with the dwarves for the ancestors of the Rohirrim.

And then there’s **Smaug{/b] in “The Hobbit”.

There certainly were more dragons in JRRT’s world. He did mention others, just not by name. And some did survive after Smaug’s demise too. But it was said by JRRT at least once that Smaug was the last of the “great dragons” whatever that means.