And once again, in the midst of Denethor’s agony, we can only marvel at how skillfully his faltering spirit was lifted by the supportive words of Gandalf M. Stormcrow, Crisis Counselor:
"Denethor started as one waking from a trance, and the flame died in his eyes, and he wept; and he said: ‘Do not take my son from me! He calls for me.’
‘He calls,’ said Gandalf, ‘but you cannot come to him yet. For he must seek healing on the threshold of death, and maybe find it not. Whereas your part is to go out to the battle of your City, where maybe death awaits you. This you know in your heart.’ "
What’s wrong with the Histories? I’d like to check them out. I have read the appendix (in fact, that’s where I am right now), but I just want something in more detail. Like what was Saruman like before he turned evil-was he ever a decent individual as they claimed he was?
Saruman was much like Gandalf, really. He was the leader of the Istari expedition, and the Valar don’t usually make big mistakes like putting someone who’s obviously just biding his time to grab real power in control of such a mission. However, it is notable that Cirdan gave the third Ring to Gandalf rather than Saruman on their arrival.
But Saruman was bent by Sauron through the palantir as well as through his study of the history of the Ring. The insidiousness of the corruption is one of those creepy touches that Tolkien did so well. Through his thirst for knowledge and genuine desire to help the Free Peoples of Middle-Earth, Saruman was wrapped bit by bit in the web that Sauron and the Ring wove together, just as Gandalf noted that the Ring would entice him (Gandalf) through pity and the desire to help.
Saruman was always a little bit more arrogant and less wise than Gandalf. Even back in Arda. Olorin (Gandalf) was considered the Wisest of the Maiar and ever a friend of the Elves.
When asked to go, he tried to beg out on the grounds he might not be fit for such a test.
Saruman took pride in being the leader of the Istari and later the White Council.
It was always Galadriel’s intent that Gandalf lead it.
I can no longer remember for sure but I believe Saruman was numbered among Aulë the Smith’s people and thus new Sauron in the early times. I think Olorin was A Maia of Manwë and Varda.
Olorin is elsewhere described as dwelling in Lorien, the servant of Nienna and the counselor of Irmo. He was specifically chosen by Manwë to go back to ME as an Istari.
Yeah. I hope the previous poster wasn’t confusing Jackson’s Denethor with the Tolkien original. As much as I liked the Jackson movies, he really butchered the Denethor character.
I have to agree. Biggest flaw in PJ’s presentation, IMHO. And PJ could have redeemed a lot of it by including just two things: A statement by Gandalf wondering what’s up with Denethor as he used to be really together, followed by showing Denethor with the Palantir, demonstrating what caused his despair.
Yes. They could have scrapped the whole beacon-fires sequence to make room for it, and stuck with the books on this one - that the signal goes up even as Gandalf and Pippin are haring down to Minas Tirith, showing that Denethor is doing his best to stay in command of the situation. There’s still room to get the dramatic aerial shots of the beacon outposts themselves on top of some of the most inhospitable mountains imaginable - that was cool, no argument.
Then there’s Gandalf’s “OMGWTF, I’ve just sent Frodo into Mordor and it’s stuffed with ten zillion orcs, oh no!” moment… :rolleyes:
Plus didn’t Denethor actually had the right to use the palintir as he was a legitimate steward? So Sauron was not able to ensnare him with it, just feed his despair.
Not so much that he was a Steward, but by some chance the Numenorean Blood ran truer in Denethor then it had for any in many generations. His will was very strong and thus he could not be controlled by Sauron but only fed despair as you said. Boromir would have had small chance against Sauron if he had become Steward and used the Palantir.