Some suggestions regarding the situation around George Floyd's death. Are these ideas simplistic?

[k9bfriender]

@DSeid

Are there any cities that have good models of how to do it, if not well, at least not so poorly?

My impression is depressing but it seems like the best intentioned and smartest mayors still have issues with police abuse of power with excessive force often applied through lenses that perceive Black men as a threat as the default.

I doubt we here are going to create great action plans but surely some cities serve as decent models?

Small cities, yeah. I can name a few that have exemplary police departments that do serve their communities well. My city is pretty good, and we have a very diverse population, as well as a very diverse police force. Every interaction I have had with them (as a white male) has been very positive, but I haven’t heard any complaints from my minority neighbors.

How well that scales up to large cities, I do not know.

OTOH: I also have Richard Jones as our Sheriff, and the very few interactions I’ve had with county deputies has been less than stellar.

[DSeid]

The point of the question though is what are they doing that other cities are not? If it isn’t scalable per se then perhaps modeling each neighborhood force in those images?

[lobotomyboy63]

You could look at the officers from similar cases:

Category:Filmed killings by law enforcement

I wonder what correlations you might find among the psych evaluations they each had when they signed up to become police. Correlations don’t predict perfectly, of course, but when officers start racking up multiple complaints it would be good to know.

[k9bfriender]

@DSeid

The point of the question though is what are they doing that other cities are not? If it isn’t scalable per se then perhaps modeling each neighborhood force in those images?

One thing that they are doing is hiring people from within the community. Two of the police in my city live on my street. I see them at neighborhood events out of uniform far more often then I see them in uniform.

When I do see them in uniform, I don’t see a uniform, I see that guy that lives 2 doors down from me, doing his job. When he sees me, he doesn’t see someone to consider suspicious, he sees his neighbor.

If you had a way of drawing people from each of the neighborhoods to join the police, then that may help. I don’t know exactly how practical that is.

[thorny_locust]

Not sure which thread to drop this in, but heard about it today, and seems it ought to go somewhere: police choosing to march with the demonstrators seems to be helpful.

Of course, I expect what’s needed first is the attitude that caused them to do so.

A sheriff put down his baton to listen to protesters. They chanted ‘walk with us,’ so he did

N.J. police chief carries banner, helps lead march in peaceful protest of George Floyd killing

[Amara_1]

@DSeid

The point of the question though is what are they doing that other cities are not? If it isn’t scalable per se then perhaps modeling each neighborhood force in those images?

There are multiple things that can help:
-Training in De-escalation techniques as opposed to “warrior training”
-Police come from within the areas being policed
-Accountability - bad cops are disciplined/fired/censured. This is a big one.
-Cameras on at all times
-No cash bail
-Membership in racist organizations result in firing
-Federal oversight as necessary for civil rights violations (it is to laugh right now)
-Regulate police unions. In Minneapolis, the union seems to be driving bad behavior while the police chief has less power.

Of note, in thorny locust’ssecond cite, Camden’s police force was so bad that the entire force was fired. The city was policed by state forces for a while and a brand new city force was put in. That force practices many of the items above and the area has stayed peaceful.

There are too many videos, from journalists, showing the police, again and again, are initiating or escalating the violence. They are violent against people walking on the street (not part of the protest), on their porches and protecting their businesses.

This can be fixed but it’ll require a lot of hard work; I just don’t see that happening with this president and DOJ calling for violence.

Contrast this "re-open protest"scene within the last few weeks with this one or this one. Police are repeatedly initiating violence - how can there be peace?

[Amara_1]

So after I posted that, it turns out I was wrong on cameras. Here’sa fact-based thread on things that make it better.

3. More restrictive state and local policies governing police use of force are associated with significantly lower rates of police shootings/killings by police. …4. Demilitarization. Police depts that get more military weapons from the federal govt kill more people. You can stop that from happening through local and state policy. Montana (Red state) has gone the furthest on this. Your state can and should follow. 5. Police Union Contracts. Every 4-6 years your police dept’s accountability system is re-negotiated. Purging misconduct records, reinstating fired officers, dept funding- it’s in the contract. Cities with worse contracts have higher police violence rates…

Read the thread, each point links to a fact-based document. It’s insightful.

[DSeid]

Thank you and I will.

Many of those things had been in the Obama task force recommendations and progress was being made.

Then … other direction. Trump has enabled police violence that result in deaths like George Floyd’s - Vox

[bump]

@Cheesesteak

Middle aged white guy driving a 10 year old 4 cylinder Toyota Highlander with elementary school stickers on the back, at 7am Sunday morning. When I got pulled over for expired registration the cop’s partner also got out and positioned himself strategically in my blind spot with his hand on his gun too.

Ubiquitous guns are a screwing with our society in many ways, cops treating routine interactions like imminent firefights is just one of them.

I don’t know… people have had guns for the entire history of the country- my grandfather and father could have very well had guns in their cars back in the 1940s and 1960s as well, but cops didn’t do this nonsense back then.

And Velocity, FWIW the Dallas PD is doing a very good job at it. And all signs point toward the Amber Guyger thing being a legitimate accident. That’s not to say that DPD handled it 100% perfectly, but a lot of the perceived problems are more within the bounds of the public not understanding how the process actually works, not mis-steps by DPD. For example, there was a LOT of anger about Guyger not being jailed prior to trial, as if being jailed prior to trial is some kind of petty punishment that she was not subject to. Or that the defense tried to “smear” Jean’s reputation unfairly (a very common lawyer tactic in just about any court case), and other stuff like that.

In general, the City of Dallas as an institution is pretty black-friendly. The mayor, the city manager, and multiple department heads/assistant city managers are black, including the current and prior chiefs of police. The biggest problem is that something like 50% of the DPD rank and file is white, 26% black and 21% Hispanic, while the city at large is about 43% Hispanic, 25% black and 29% white. Even then, the black population in town is represented proportionately in the police force.

But what I said earlier still holds… there’s something fucked up in the way that they treat civilians. There’s a certain disregard/suspicion for non-cop people that they really don’t need to have. About 4 years ago, they did the almost the same EXACT thing here in Dallas to a white guy named Tony Timpa that they did to George Floyd- basically he was all coked up or something, called 911 asking for help, and the cops showed up, pinned him to the ground and killed him, despite multiple pleas for release, cries of distress, etc… Body cam footage confirmed all this.

To me, that shows that the cops have the wrong mentality and/or aren’t recruiting the right people. That’s not to say that there isn’t some sort of institutional problem with cops vs. the African American community, but Timpa’s death points toward something larger with the cop/community relationship as a whole.

[septimus]

@ITR_champion

Funny thing: 18 complaints had previously been made against Derek Chauvin, the policeman who killed George Floyd, and he was involved in killing one other person while on the job prior to the current case. 16 of those complaints resulted in nothing, while the other 2 results in sternly worded letters. The previously killing did not lead to criminal charges, either. And in that case, would you guess who was responsible for not prosecuting him? A county Prosecutor by the name of Amy Klobuchar. She instead referred that case, and all others like it involving police, to grand juries which generally chose not to do much.

Want to get rid of bad cops? Get rid of the unions and get rid of the Democratic politicians who take money from the unions and then protect the bad guys.

While I agree that scum like Chauvin should be removed as police with greater ease, your post is extremely misleading. The deceased in the earlier killing reportedly pointed a shotgun at police. Was Mr. Floyd pointing a gun at police when he was killed?

While she may have been too “police-friendly,” your specific claim about Klobuchar is contraindicated by your own cited source:

Chauvin was one of six officers who fired on and killed Wayne Reyes in 2006 after Reyes reportedly aimed a shotgun at police after stabbing his friend and girlfriend. While the death happened during Klobuchar’s tenure at the helm of the Hennepin County Attorney’s Office, the case did not go to a grand jury until after she left the office and became a senator. [sgs7’s emphasis]

Finally, your “get rid of the Democratic politicians” is not only nasty partisan tripe, but is so absurdly wrong that it discredits your entire comment. Do you really believe that right-wing Republican scum like Donald Trump or Sheriff Joe Arpaio are the leaders who will protect minorities from racist cops?

[DrDeth]

@bump

I don’t know… people have had guns for the entire history of the country- my grandfather and father could have very well had guns in their cars back in the 1940s and 1960s as well, but cops didn’t do this nonsense back then.
…
But what I said earlier still holds… there’s something fucked up in the way that they treat civilians. There’s a certain disregard/suspicion for non-cop people that they really don’t need to have. …

To me, that shows that the cops have the wrong mentality and/or aren’t recruiting the right people. That’s not to say that there isn’t some sort of institutional problem with cops vs. the African American community, but Timpa’s death points toward something larger with the cop/community relationship as a whole.

Yeah, it isnt guns. You could buy tommy guns by mail before WW2.

And that’s it- 'civilians". Cops are civilians too. It is always “us vs them”, but it used to be “cops and the public vs crooks”, now it is “cops vs civilians”, the thin blue line, etc.

Part of this is how we treat cops, mind you.

[Pantastic]

@bump

That’s not to say that DPD handled it 100% perfectly, but a lot of the perceived problems are more within the bounds of the public not understanding how the process actually works, not mis-steps by DPD. For example, there was a LOT of anger about Guyger not being jailed prior to trial, as if being jailed prior to trial is some kind of petty punishment that she was not subject to. Or that the defense tried to “smear” Jean’s reputation unfairly (a very common lawyer tactic in just about any court case), and other stuff like that.

So you’re saying that ‘the process’ for someone who is not a cop is that the person would break into another person’s house and shoot them, and the cops would arrest the shooter and take them to interrogation or jail on the spot, but instead let them call friends and leave them at large indefinitely. Can you give an example of this ever happening in Dallas for another case of a person breaking into a house and shooting the lawful occupant? And what was pointed out as a smear campaign is that the cops immediately executed a search warrant for narcotics on the VICTIM’s apartment, but not the perpetrator’s, which was clearly just fishing for smear material.

[BwanaBob]

@Mdcastle

Yes. That’s why we have due process and the criminal justice system instead of vigilante mob rule in this country. You’re not entitled to a free TV set because you don’t have the patience for a Grand Jury investigation.

That you are more bothered (or even equally bothered) about someone stealing something during a riot than a group of people systematically being screwed over IS the problem.

I have this argument with Republican family members often and it seems intractable. They are more bothered by people getting “something for free” than people not having basic needs met. There are days I can’t really believe we share any genetic matter. Or that we’re even the same species.

[BwanaBob]

@DrDeth

Yeah, it isnt guns. You could buy tommy guns by mail before WW2.

And that’s it- 'civilians". Cops are civilians too. It is always “us vs them”, but it used to be “cops and the public vs crooks”, now it is “cops vs civilians”, the thin blue line, etc.

Part of this is how we treat cops, mind you.

Exactly. Some of the stuff police do, if a soldier did it to a civilian it would be a war crime, case closed.

Police sign up understanding they might die in the line of duty.
Civilians do not sign up for that risk. Especially at the hands of so-called protectors. And that’s civilians of all colors and creeds.

[ArtBeforeScience]

I’ll just respond to OP.

Can’t make a rule of “don’t be racist” because we don’t have a clear definition of what that actually means when applied to another human being. I’m not weaseling here. If you read stuff like Ibram X Kendi and others, they are all proposing different ways to frame the debate on race and racism. You can fire people for expressing racist views, though.

Police departments should fill their ranks with officers who are trusted members of local communities.

This is one of the strongly recommended community policing practices from Resmaa Menakem’s awesome book “My Grandmother’s Hands”, which talks about healing inter-generational racial trauma through body-centered therapies developed using polyvagal theory. Menakem has extensive recommendations for how to run police forces that both support the officers, and also foster correct police practice.

Demand that those who do the hiring for the Minneapolis PD (or any other PD in question) be fired and replaced by people who promise to not hire racist officers.

Well-intentioned but politically naive. You can’t “demand” something so quickly and people don’t “promise not to hire racist officers”. The problem is not the policy, it’s candidate evaluation. You’d have to redefine that criteria based on their past behaviors or statements. So a department could have a policy of disqualifying candidates who have certain things in their backgrounds.

I live in Oakland, CA which just had a major political shake-up in their department. Their new chief got fired because she got on the wrong side of the citizens oversight committee. I don’t really know who was in the wrong, to be honest.

[split_p_j]

@thorny_locust

For one, as lots of other people have said, there’s no proof at this point that it was personal; and nothing whatsoever in the form of actual public evidence to support a theory that the two were involved in some scheme to pass counterfeits. Sure, further thorough investigation – which certainly ought to be done, but which will take some time to do – might turn up any of all sorts of connections. Or it might not turn up anything more than connections on the level of ‘I know I’ve seen that guy around somewhere’.

For two in this post, but for the main point: the cop probably expected the blue wall to protect him – as they did while the murder was happening, even if it broke down later on – specifically because Floyd was black. So whether or not it was personal, it was racist. One doesn’t preclude the other.

The blue wall treats white people in the game the same way.

[RivkahChaya]

DH has an idea that we should come out and ask anyone “Do you think you could get made enough to kill someone who angered you?” and not on a test, but as a direct, face-to-face question. Anyone who comes up with a scenario, however far-fetched, where they could be driven to kill through anger, who hems and haws before coming up with a weak “No,” or who, gawd forbid, comes right out and answers in the affirmative, should be outta there.

He (DH) thinks they should get asked as part of intake, and again after completing initial training, when they’re feeling safer, and their guard is down.

It sounds simplistic, but them, racism is pretty simplistic thinking. A lot of evil isn’t terribly complex.

[Czarcasm]

@split_p_j

The blue wall treats white people in the game the same way.

What absolute nonsense.

[split_p_j]

@k9bfriender

You were pretty sure that that was what happened a few posts ago.

The fact that they worked in the same place may have some bearing on why officer POS murdered Floyd, sure. He may have known him for some reason and had some sort of hatred for him already.

That could come out in an investigation, and is entirely plausible, if not yet proven.

Your contention is that they were in a conspiracy together, and that officer POS killed his partner in crime to keep him from talking.

Most interactions with law enforcement will involve at least one criminal. No one is disputing that Floyd handed the cashier a fake $20 for some smokes.

The problem here is that there were two criminals, one of whom was the cop, and that one being the violent murdering type of criminal.

If we are going for speculation, then my best guess is that the $20 came from a visitor to the strip club, and that Floyd was tipped out with it. He didn’t know it was fake, wanted some smokes, so he tried to buy some. They rejected it, so he sat in his car for a minute, and then went in to try again. Not out of nefarious intent, but because that was the $20 that he had to buy smokes with, and he really wanted smokes.

I wonder if the stripper that tipped him with the fake knew. If so, I wonder how shitty she feels about setting him up to be murdered.

Officer POS shows up, maybe he’s jealous of Floyd because Floyd is an inside worker who gets to stand around and watch naked girls while POS has to stand out in the rain. Maybe that is what incentivizes him to choose to teach this guy a lesson, hurt him, humiliate him, degrade and dehumanize him. He goes too far and kills him.

I will still say that he would not have treated a white guy in the same fashion. Both from his point of view of being prejudiced against minorities, and his understanding of the societal view that minorities lives are not worth as much, and so he could get away with it.

If Floyd had not died, if he had simply been tormented and debased, would we have heard about it? Would anyone have cared? Probably not.

Once again, I will say that that is entirely speculation based on my current knowledge of the case. But it fits much better than your phony money laundering conspiracy.

The corruption is exactly what is being protested. Corruption and racism do go hand in hand. The blue wall that protects him protects all racists on the police force.
I have no reason at all to believe that officer POS intended to kill Floyd. Maybe he’s such a genius that he knows that murdering in the stupidest way possible makes it look like he’s too stupid to have intended to have killed him, but that’s way far down a rabbit hole of unfounded speculation.

He intended to harm, humiliate, degrade and dehumanize. He intended to show a message to other black folk not to get out of line or disrespect his authority.

I don’t know that the fact that they worked together didn’t have anything to do with it. Officer POS may have already had a reason to have a beef with Floyd. But, that doesn’t mean that it wasn’t racist in nature, and in some ways, makes that more likely, IMHO.

Your speculation could very well be what happened, I’m the first to admit I don’t know.

I still have a huge issue with the fact they worked at the same place. I feel that this needs a hard look, but it’s not really being mentioned at all now. I bring this up to people and none of them know this fact. You can try to dismiss it all you want, but it is there.

I’m saying that I think it was personal, for reasons currently unknown. The cop for sure thought he would get away anything he did because of the blue wall, not because the victim was black. That deals with police corruption, but that is not really what is being protested.

This whole incident is being portrayed as cops randomly killing innocent black people, but I’m not reading this incident it that way.

I think I want to know for sure before we start burning the country down.

[split_p_j]

I agree he didn’t intend to kill him. That’s my point, it was personal, even the eyewitnesses in the initial videos thought it looked personal. Think of the difference on how you treat people you don’t know vs. those you do. People can read that and they did. I guess that once I found out that they worked at bouncers at the same place, I just can’t get worked up about all of this.

This fact may have help at first, but its out of control now.