Some Thoughts on Gun Control

I know that this has been discussed quite a bit here, but I thought I’d throw my own thoughts into the mix. I saw another thread that made me think to post this, but as that thread was (a) quite old, and (b) related to a specific anecdotal incident, it didn’t seem appropriate. So… please read on if you’re interested in my perspective on the subject.

I’m a gun-control advocate. Let’s just get that on the table. Note, however, that I say gun control, not gun ban. There is a definite difference between the two, despite the NRA’s constant equating of the two. The “slippery slope” argument is, frankly, a crock of pungent dung… at least, in my case it is. I am in no way for banning guns. I’m not trying to “wrest anyone’s beloved gun” away, unless they are using it unsafely. I will explain what I mean.

A little history… I grew up around guns. I took a fairly comprehensive Firearms Safety Course when I was 13, and my father had somewhere in the neighborhood of 20-25 guns in the house, of pretty much every variety; from .22 pistols to shotguns to hunting rifles, he had most anything. He also practiced reloading his own ammunition, when he had the time. Unfortunately, he did not store his firearms properly at all, and often they were in easy reach. I was smart enough not to handle them, though, and had been educated enough to know how to use them if I ever had to. The only worries I ever had about his lack of safety with them was that he would start playing with one while intoxicated (which was sadly often), and hurt himself, me, or someone in the vicinity. I was equally fortunate that this never came to pass.

This is all my way of saying I’m no stranger to guns. I myself have fired guns in the past, at firing ranges and at targets in the desert, and rarely hunting. I know how they work, and I could probably still take one apart without too mucch trouble. I don’t use them anymore, though, nor do I own one. I refuse to have one in my house, and I make a habit of asking the parents of friends of my children if they own any firearms before allowing them to spend time at those people’s house. If the parents do own firearms, I ask if they are stored safely. If they are uncomfortable asking either question, my response is simple. Sorry, my child will not be allowed to visit your child or your home. If I can’t be sure other parents are storing their firearms appropriately, then my kids won’t be spending time there. Simple as that.

Now… perhaps you see where I’m going with this. As I’ve said, I’m not for banning firearms, but I am for stricter laws as to who is allowed to own guns, and how they are allowed to keep them. I find that the current laws on the books are something of a bad joke, and I consider the following recommendations vast improvements.

First… every gun owner must get a permit to own their gun. This is pretty much already the case, but can be overcome by various loopholes. I am for eliminating those loopholes, or at least minimizing them.

Second… before getting their gun ownership permit, every gun owner should receive a battery of training regarding gun safety and the legal aspects of gun ownership, and then they must pass a test covering these topics. Fail the test, and you don’t get a permit. I consider the fact that this is not already the case uphauling. We require training and testing for all potential automobile drivers, but not owners of weapons designed to kill. Frankly, that’s just stupid.

Third… before being allowed to buy a gun, anywhere, anytime, a permitted gun owner must prove that they possess the means to properly store that gun in a safe way, such as a gun safe, locker, or similar. This could be a condition of gun ownership permits, perhaps. No safe storage, no gun… very simple. People who are found possessing guns without the means to store them properly will be guilty of a crime and fined, similar to seat belt laws.

Fourth, reckless use of guns. Anyone who is seen handling a gun recklessly or unsafely will also be guilty of a crime, and can be arrested. This includes waving a gun around in a public place, firing a gun in a populated area (even if it doesn’t hurt anyone), and most especially, handling a firearm while under the influence of alcohol or drugs. In fact, I am a strong advocate of specific laws that prohibit gun use while drinking or high. I believe that the same limits that apply to driving while intoxicated should apply with equal vigor to firing or handling firearms while under the influence, and they should be prosecuted with the same zeal.

This is the extent of my gun control ideas. Nothing further. The only law that already exists is the permit law, but it is poorly enforced and a nightmare of disorganization. I believe this could be improved upon, and I believe the others would be great improvements. I think they are all quite reasonable, and many (though not all) gun owners have agreed with me in the past. I consider it quite incredible that we have far more legal controls and restrictions on the everyday use of automobiles, an arguably productive tool, than we do on the use of firearms, an inarguably destructive tool. I think that, at the very least, the laws restricting the use of firearms should mirror those restricting automobile use. Until they do, they lack the proper respect for guns. I think that’s pretty simple.

These laws will do little to prevent the types of maniacal attacks we’ve seen in Columbine and elsewhere… but then, I don’t think there are any laws that will accomplish that. If someone is determined to kill on a massive scale, then they will find a way to do so, whether with an illegally-obtained firearm, or with a bag of fertilizer and an accelerant. I may not like guns, but I recognize that some people just want to kill, and they will use whatever tool comes most easily to hand to do so. No, the laws I have described are more to require those who own and use guns in America to do so safely, and with full respect of the tool they hold in their hands. I think this is a reasonable approach.

It pretty much comes down to respect, for me. I am not afraid of guns, but I understand and respect their power. They are potent tools, designed to hurt or kill, and they perform their function easily. The laws restricting their use should reflect and respect their capabilities, and I find that they currently they do not. I hope to someday effect some change in this regard.

While I am not, and will never be, a gun owner, I do own several swords. They are ornamental only, but I like what they stand for, and I respect their capabilities as well. A sword has also been designed to hurt or kill, and can be a potent tool. Neal Stephenson explained the difference between a sword and a gun best, I think, in Snow Crash:

Swords demonstrate their power in their shape and their weight and the way they move. Guns only demonstrate their power only through action, and by then it is often too late. “Gun control” is a loaded concept amongst gun owners especially… hopefully I ave explained my ideas reasonably.

Comments are welcomed.

What exactly are you seeking to accomplish via this “everyone must have a permit” scheme? Getting guns out of the hands of criminals? You might be surprised to know that criminals (who by law are not allowed to own guns at all) are exempt from statutes that require them to report that they own a gun; requiring them to report that they are breaking the law would violate their right against self-incrimination under the Fifth Amendment. See Haynes v. U.S.. So, all this would do is create another cost to be borne by gun owners.

We require training and testing for automobile drivers because driving an automobile requires more than just turning the wheel. It requires learning the meanings of signs and markers, how to judge road conditions based on environmental factors, and (most importantly) the rules of right-of-way and interacting with other drivers on a constant basis. Owning, or even carrying, a gun requires none of that. You really think people need to take a course to learn “don’t go around shooting people”?

Who decides what’s “safe” storage? Is it storing the gun out of sight? Unloaded? Trigger-locked? In a locked closet? With the bolt or slide removed and stored separately? If that’s the case, why even HAVE a gun in the first place; your chances of getting and using it in an emergency are next to nil. But hey, the idea isn’t actually to get people to store guns properly, but to discourage them from having them in the first place, right? I don’t have children, and none ever come visit my home, and even if they did I wouldn’t let them romp around in my bedroom; why should I be forced to comply with these rules? Furthermore, how is this going to be enforced? Do you advocate suspending the Fourth Amendment, allowing police to dash into homes at random and turn the place over, looking for improperly-stored guns?

Surprise: this is already the case. Waving a gun around in public is, to say the least, frowned upon.

Be honest: are you really trying to encourage responsible gun ownership, or are you trying to discourage gun ownership period with these proposals of yours?

I think the problem here is that history has shown pretty clearly that gun control doesn’t work. i.e. it doesn’t significantly reduce the number of deaths or injuries due to firearms.

When a new gun control law is passed, and it doesn’t work, there is always another gun-control supporter who calls for stricter controls. So even if most gun-control supporters are not in favor of a ban, it doesn’t take a genius to see where the process is leading.

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Can you point to a jurisdiction that saw a significant drop in shootings after enacting a comprehensive licensing scheme? If not, I’m not sure what the point is.
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In principal, this seems reasonable. But you have to keep in mind that in many areas, there is incredible hostility on the part of the authorities against private firearm ownership. What happens if the local law refuses to even give you the application form? (This actually happened to me!)

In any event, you’re not the first person to come up with these ideas. Can you point to a jurisdiction that saw a significant drop in shootings after enacting such a scheme?

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Again, I point out the possibility of abuse, as well as the lack of evidence that this will do any good.

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As another poster pointed out, brandishing, as well as discharging a firearm in a populated area, are already illegal in most arease.

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Well, when I went to the DMV to get my driver’s license, there were no sneaky tricks. As far as I know, there are no DMV’s that give driver licenses only to those who are politically connected. The driving test guy is not looking for any possible reason to fail you.

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I wasn’t required to have a permit to own or purchase a firearm when I lived in Texas. So far as I know I don’t need a permit to purchase a firearm here in Arkansas either. Why would I need a permit to exercise a right?

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We only require a divers test for people who wish to use public roads. Driving on public roads isn’t a right it is a privilige. We don’t require a permit to exercise religion or free speech so why require it to exercise another right. Now if you want to talk about things like conceal carry where someone takes firearms into public life then a permit sounds more reasonable.

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How I store my firearms is my concern not yours. If my firearm is locked away how will I be able to get to it quickly should I ever find the need? When you’re awakened at 3 AM by a screaming family member you don’t have time to open a safe and get a gun.

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There are already laws against waving a gun around in public and firing a gun in public places.

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Which permit laws and why are they disorganized and nightmarish?

You seem to be a big fan of state license for motor vehicles. How come despite the license system automobiles are involved in deaths far more often then firearms? How will your permit system help such things?

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I don’t need a piece of paper to show that I respect the capabilities of a firearm.

Baloney, a firearm can demonstrate its power without ever being fired. Ever looked down the business end of a .45? What about the indimidating chick-chack of a pump shotgun being chambered? I enjoyed Snow Crash but Stephenson had it all wrong in that quote.

Marc

It’s not a “crock of pungent dung” because you pronounce it so. And from your very OP and the tone you are using (“wrest anyone’s beloved gun”) it is quite clear how you feel.

You claim that they were not properly stored, and yet somehow you knew not to handle them and go on a killing spree. Sounds like he did practice gun safety, in that he taught you very well what you should and should not do. And evidently he respected the power that society had given him enough not to “play” with his firearms when drunk. I don’t see the problem - it seems like you are trying to create a bad situation that did not exist.

And they can lie to your face, simple as that - not because they wish to deceive, but perhaps because they are embarassed by the question. So how do you verify what they say is true - do you insist then on house inspections? You can’t know what is going to happen once your child gets over there.

I assume too that you also ask the following questions:

  • Do they have working smoke detectors and a fire escape plan?
  • Do they have a gas furnace? Gas water heater? Do they have CO detectors? Are there batteries in there? Are they sure?
  • Are there any diabetics or people who use drugs which might leave syringes out? Do they have a clearly labeled sharps container? Is the medicine cabinet locking?
  • Are all power tools securely locked away? What about lawnmowers?
  • What about chemicals? Bleach, auto parts cleaners, etc?
  • Do they have a pool? Is there a trained lifeguard on duty?
  • Do they have a first aid kit? CPR training?
  • Do all kitchens and bathrooms have non-slip flooring?
  • What about GFCI circuits? Is the house up to code?
  • Are all kitchen knives kept locked up? What about scissors?

If you don’t ask about all of these things, and more, then you see…you would be revealing your bias by only asking about guns, and not asking about all of these other things. You obviously ask about these things too, since you are concerned for the safety of your children, and not just reacting in a knee-jerk fashion to make a political point, correct?

This reveals that you actually do not know very much about gun laws and legislation in the United States, as I can assure you that the vast majority of States do not require any sort of “permit” to get a gun.

It’s not a perfect analogy, since in most States you can operate your motor vehicle on your own property without a license. It sounds like splitting hairs, but think about the bigger issue of a person on their own property versus a person in society.

And how do you prove this, without allowing the Smiling Policeman to rummage through my house and see what’s up?

Wait a minute - they’re guilty, and then they’re arrested? What about the trial? Don’t you need that before guilt? :confused:

This is already a crime in most all jurisdictions I know of. I don’t know what country you live in, but in the United States it is typically illegal to go around firing guns in any populated area of a city or town, outside of a target range. Even for acts of self-defence, it’s still often technially illegal, with a “it shall be a defence” clause thrown in to allow the DA to not charge you with the crime, deending on their political bent. :rolleyes:

I disagree. I think they need to be handled with greater zeal, and harsher penalties, than drunk driving. Get drunk and wave a gun around? Ten years, no parole, IMO. Do it again? Life, no parole. I recently read a criminology study that showed that an inordinately large number of murders were committed by persons who had had a history of improper firearms usage whilst drunk or on illegal drugs. If that was bourne up by further study and proof, it sounds like a good acid-test for removing human scum from society.

What permit law?

Exactly. The actions you propose will not do anything to stop the mass killings carried out by human scum. So, do we then need to take the Next Logical Step, and move on to bans?

Or if not, what is the purpose of what you propose?

I’ve posted in the past, many many times:

  • Too many pieces of human scum have access to firearms.
  • Prove to me without any doubt that your methods are not a slippery slope towards blanket bans (which aside from “shall issue” concealed carry laws has and does exist in this country, regardless of what the gun banners say. Fortunately, our own laws provide a paper trail to back me up) and I will vehemently support strict licensing laws.
  • Until then, we must keep the status quo, IMO.

Sure…when old Neal can write a goddamn ending to one of his books (like Cryptonomicon - the best first 99% of a book ever, with the remaining 1% really sucking hard), maybe I’ll take him more seriously. Or then, maybe not, seeing as he has no real qualifications at all to be commenting on the subject in a manner that should influence me to listen to him.

I think you need to read some past debates. With all due respect towards your viewpoint and ideas, each and every one of your suggestions has been hashed out for hundreds of posts in the past here, and no side is going to convince the other that their approach is reasonable and sane.

Well, I’ve been taking a long vacation from GD, but my appetite has been re-whetted a bit from participating in some debates on another board, and anyway if there’s anything that can bring me back, it’s a gun control thread. Max has already hit most of the notes I wanted to*, so I can just ease back in here by picking a few nits:

Not where I live (Vermont). And we have a very low rate of gun crime here.

If you think people should have to get a permit, well then…I will repeat to you what I said in a number of posts back when I used to post here a lot: In a free society, citizens are not required to justify themselves or their actions to the state. Rather, the state must justify it’s actions to it’s citizens. What this means to you is, if you want the state to have the power to require prospective gun owners to get permits, then the burden of proof is on you to show why this is necessary.

I could conceivably support something like this as a prerequisite for a permit to carry a gun in public, provided that the tests are objective and permits are issued on a “shall issue” basis. A number of states instituted just this kind of system over the last ~15 years, read Professor John Lott’s “More Guns, Less Crime” for the positive effect it has had.

But I can’t imagine requiring tests as a prerequisite for keeping a gun in your own home. What would be the justification for this?

One more thing:

Well, I’m sure you are unique in a lot of different ways, but a sample of one proves nothing.

*Added just before posting: And also lucwarm, MGibson, and Anthracite. There was a long gap between my writing this and posting it…damned Explorer crashes!

I believe in the right to own a gun. I am a gun owner. I am in favor of laws that require a waiting period. It seems that this would prevent sudden suicides and rage homicides. As for felons or criminals owning guns… I believe that criminals will find places to get guns. The waiting period keeps the normally law abiding citizen from doing something suddenly that they wouldn’t do if they thought about it for a couple of days.

As for gun safety and kids, I think all parents should talk to their kids about guns. I remember my dad’s rules were: 1)Treat all guns as if they are loaded. 2) Unloaded guns kill people.

Riboflavin, the poster here, once told me that 80% of firearms used in a crime were not legally owned. I don’t have a cite for that, and he didn’t either (and I took him at his word). But whether or not “80%” is an accurate number, clearly the effect of gun control in general isn’t going to affect this much.

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I’d like to see some evidence that shows the waiting period has had any signifigant impact on crimes committed with firearms. THe purpose of the 5 day waiting period wasn’t to cool people off, or to prevent suicides, or prevent rage homicides (whatever that is). The 5 day waiting period was simply put into practice to prevent criminals from purchasing guns from licensed dealers.
The suicide angle is a non-issue because I shouldn’t be forced to wait 5 days because the government is trying to protect me from myself. I’d would like to know how many “rage” homicides would have been prevented by a 5 day waiting period? “If we can prevent just one death” isn’t a good answer either.

Marc

What I mean by rage homicide is something like a husband or wife, no criminal record, finds out the spouse is unfaithful and flips out. In addition, other killings like that. A moment of insanity in other words.
It would be too difficult to give statistics on homicides that do not occur. That might even qualify as impossible. It seems rational or common sensical that if a person was suddenly met with something that they perceived to be tragic, loss of job, etc that they would be less likely to blow their brains out if they had a chance to chill for a bit and recognize that it is not the end of the world but instead, just a bit of adversity. I realize that a person hell bent on killing themselves could find other ways to do so.

No matter, I see no harm in imposing a waiting period.

Here is a problem I really have with the waiting period position: It is not a simple matter to just on an impulse go out and buy a gun. The gun ban position is that a person is likely to come home, find their spouse in bed with another, then turn around, drive to the store, wait in line, choose a gun, stand there while the person at the counter tells them about it and recommends the proper ammunition, fills out the yellow form and any others required by the law, then pays for it, goes back home, takes their newly purchased weapon, loads it, and shoots their spouse.

Calling or implying that that is an impulse act really sets off my bullshit detector. I call that a premeditated murder. And I think a person likely to do these things is not going to be put off by wating another few days.

Are you implying that since you can neither prove nor disprove it, and you personally, in your own opinion see “no harm” in it, that this is how legislation can and should be directed or written?

That somehow does not seem right to me, if so.

If I were in a position to draft and implement law, I would be in favor of a wating period. My comment, “I see no harm in imposing a waiting period” was an invitation for other posters to enlighten me on this issue. I am not informed on this issue to the extent necessary to proclaim that I am without doubt, correct on my assumptions.
I am eager but not arrogant. :cool: So, please accept my invitation to share what you know on this issue. I hope being an expert is not a requirement for participation in GD. In other words…I invite you and others to “make me wrong”.

As I understand things, a study was done after the Brady Act went into effect which found (1) a slight decrease in suicides among the elderly; and (2) no change in murders.

This makes sense to me since, as demonstrated by Anthracite’s scenario, even a couple hours is enough of a cooling off period to prevent “rage” homicides.

As far as suicides among the elderly go, I’m comfortable having a few extra suicides among old people, many of whom are no doubt suffering a great deal, to avoid putting the rest of us through the trouble, inconvenience, and indignity of waiting to buy a gun.

Although it’s admittedly unlikely, there are plausible scenarios where people, in all fairness, would be endangered by not being able to buy a gun pronto. For example, situations of civil unrest. Also, when threats are made by an estranged spouse.

Feel free to disagree, it’s a question of values.

Max Torque:

Wrong.

minty The link doesn’t seem to work for me.

Or by enraged co-workers after being fired, or the guy in the bar you pissed off last night who said he knows where you live and is going to ‘get’ you, or whatever.

The thing is, if you have a perceived need for a gun, and you don’t have one, you probably feel you need one NOW. A waiting period may in fact lead to more deaths through the inability of people to defend themselves than are saved by preventing people from ‘rage killing’. Again, the burden of proof is on those who want to enact the law.

Another possible side-effect of waiting periods is to cause more people to buy a gun. If people feel they can get fast access to a firearm if they should need one, they may tend to buy them on an ‘as-needed’ basis. If they know they’ll have to jump through hoops and wait for a long time, they may decide to buy one so they have it on hand if the need should arise.

I don’t know if either of those scenarios are accurate, but then, I’m not trying to get new laws passed. If you want them passed, show me the data. Convince me. Your ‘gut feeling’ and ‘common sense’ is completely irrelevant. It’s inadmissable in court, and it’s inadmissable in reasoned debate. The Law of Unintended Consequences exists because ‘common sense’ breaks down when you try to to apply it to complex societal factors.

So far, the data is on the side of gun owners. But they don’t even need it - they have no need to PROVE to you that they should be allowed to exercise their rights. You should have to prove to them the irrefutable need to restrict those rights.

Or perhaps I should say wrong.

**Another possible side-effect of waiting periods is to cause more people to buy a gun. If people feel they can get fast access to a firearm if they should need one, they may tend to buy them on an ‘as-needed’ basis. If they know they’ll have to jump through hoops and wait for a long time, they may decide to buy one so they have it on hand if the need should arise. **

Would it be reasonable to make the assumption that those who take issue with stricter gun laws would not be bothered by more people choosing to buy guns?

The point isn’t who would be ‘bothered’ by it, but whether or not anything productive is achieved by the laws. This is where the anti-gun lobby, imo, falls on its face. We get a lot of appeals to emotion, pictures of people killed with guns, and arguments that are not defended because they should be ‘obvious’. The hard, serious studies that I’ve seen on the effect of gun control indicate that there is little to no real effect on crime from gun control laws.

The point about people buying more guns was just an example to show how ‘gut feelings’ may turn out to be wrong in practice.

The gun control people need to do the following things in order to make their case:

  1. Show that guns are, on balance, a serious problem that requires addressing. No pictures of dead kids, please. I can use that tactic to show why we should ban 5 gallon pails. Give me the data. And it had better use accepted methodology. Comparisons between the United States and Sweden, Canada, or Britain, without accounting for confounding variables, carries no weight.

  2. Show that gun control laws would solve those problems.

  3. Show that the solution would not be worse than the problem that was solved.

In my opinion, the gun control lobby has not even come close to meeting any one of those three requirements.

#1 is easy: there’s scads of data out there on gun crimes. #2 and #3 are impossible to demonstrate without either implementing comprehensive, nationwide gun control measures or making the comparison to other nations that have done so. Thus, your formula rigged to exclude any possibility other than the status quo.