I’m not, but if I was, how could you say them? You don’t know what I look like. Perhaps I’m a fat, hideous dog faced, half goose/half eel.
I’m not though.
And I don’t hate myself or how I look, let’s get that straight. I get up every morning and work fastidiously for many minutes to look as good as I possibly can. My husband kisses me good day and says I look wonderful, I look in the mirror and tell myself I look wonderful, and sometimes, maybe I do. Construction workers whistle at me.
And then size six lincoln park trixie sits next to me on the train.
And it’s shot to hell, because in the game of ‘good bodies and hair’, she’s winning.
And I’ve already said that I know I’m whacked in the head. And I already know that the media has done it to me. I’m just stating what my life is like.
These images in the media are not healthy, they distort the mental map ( how you think the world is as opposed to how it really is ).
BUT, lets face facts, if your a man who only wants to go out with super models your going to have to compromise in the end.
I think things are kinda fair for boys / girls these days though, there is pressure on girls to get a career and pressure on boys to have a nice body - I saw an ad for magazines outside of a newsagent which had 1 magazine with a girl on the cover and one with a sexy boy !
My advice is turn off the tv, stop reading those trashy magazines and live in the ‘real world’.
Having said all that, I am currently running every day to keep trim because of social pressure, well mainly because i like running in the wood but its the social pressure that made me start.
Think about the media or entertainment for a minute. Is that commercial with the singing belly buttons real? No, belly buttons can’t sing. Is “Indiana Jones” based in any sort of reality? No. So why should you look at the people involved any differently? The people are “actors”. The commercials/movies are filmed on “sets”. It’s all set up. Its make believe. Sure the actors exist, but they don’t look like they do on TV when they wake up in the morning.
Comparing yourself to a model or actor is almost like comparing yourself to some sort of mythical being.
Sure, they may be better looking than some, or even many, normal people, but if they weren’t famous they would just blend in to the smorgasbord of normal people walking down the street.
Most of us are not actors or models…we live in reality. In reality people are attracted to all sorts of types of people. Actors and models are there to look beautiful, not to set a standard for us REAL people.
[QUOTE] Originally posted by Whack-a-Mole My wife maintained that the media’s constant barrage of images of what is a ‘beautiful’ drives a good deal of the insecurity she feels about herself.[/
[QUOTE]
While the definition of beauty varies across history and geography, the desire thereof (to have or to hold) remains constant. That said desire leads to physical or psychological harm is nothing new. (Foot binding, corsets, and the like all existed well before the Information Age.)
Though I’m sure the media aplifies her insecurities, I have a feeling she would have them regardless of what age she is in.
If there’s one constant with beauty, it’s that it is almost always unattainable. Sick as this may sound, that’s part of what makes beauty beauty.
The entire concept of fashion is based on keeping up with the latest definition of beauty. Fail and you risk being stuck with yesterday’s definition. Succeed, and you outshine all others.
I think someone already made this point, but men have other avenues. Money, influence, what have you. If the whole body thing isn’t working out, they switch over to some other category without a hitch and with confidence that they can still find someone.
But, providing ALL avenues completely fail, a guy breaks down just as easily as a girl, and believe me, it’s a pitiful sight.
On a lighter note, has anyone seen this magazine called MODE? It’s basically a fashion magazine, maybe not on the level of Vogue or Cosmopolitan haute-couture-wise. When I go to Borders (a chain of big big bookstores) and browse the magazine aisle while waiting for my double tall latte, it never occurs to me to look at Cosmo or Vogue. Totally pointless wastes of trees, these two, IMHO. I always go find MODE and flip through the pages. Know why? The women are hot! soft, lovely, sensual women with luscious curves and Garden of Eden breasts. I’m getting breathless just thinking about them.
As for bad body-psychology and its ill-effects on society, maybe we need to get out from under the tyranny of the relationship ideal. Not just the one that says you must have an “attractive” partner, I’m talking about the seemingly universal tenet that you must be in a relationship in order to be a valid human being. If you are happy as a single person, you have a better chance of continuing to be happy once you do have a relationship. And being happy means being happy with yourself, which includes your body. If you’re lonely, and you’re fat, rather than trying to lose a bunch of weight why not consider the possibility that one does not necessarily follow the other!
Incidentally I acknowledge that body image and relationship happiness are totally separate issues for many people. The previous paragraph is not intended to address the entire issue, just a part of it.
Count me as one who started working out at the gym to lose weight and look “pretty”. Yea, I was a size 13 and overweight for my height(5’1"). Yet, after a month, I noticed my skin was healthier and smoother. After some months, I was a size 11. Months later, I have developed a resistance I didn’t have before. Now, 3 years later, I care less for the weight and more for the resistance. I don’t so much now how I weight, as long as I keep having resistance and my waist remains smaller than my hips.
It also depends on moods. On my down days, I think I am an overweight petite girl who will never fit on the idealization of women. On my up days, I think I have the look of a goddess, and all the ones who don’t think that way can go to another place.
I have issues with my body. I am fighting them, and I have friends that help me. The only thing I admit I have pretty is my face, and it takes a smart guy that can see through my eyeglasses to discover that.
The idea of beauty varies by culture and time. I see how back in Marilyn Monroe’s heyday, I might been considered more pretty by the media than I do now. Nowadays, no one cares about the small buxomy gals.
PD. As a friend once told me(he was tired of my whining about being fat): “Better be a sexy plump than a skinny bitch”. Hopes that makes you feel better, jarbabyj.
Despite being a college-aged female, I believe I have a rather good self-image. And it’s not because I have the “clothes hanger on legs” body type. I like to say I come from “peasant stock”–I’ve got the muscles to work hard and the hips to have lots of kids. I’m somewhat tall (5’ 10"), have rather large bones (literally–I have thicker wrists than some of my male friends), and a deceptive amount of muscle. All of this makes me weigh far more than I appear too. The only time I get frustrated is when A) someone who’s obviously skinnier than me complains about being fat (at which point I threaten to use my musclular swimmer arms to beat them) or B) clothing shopping, where manufacturers seem to stop making clothes after a size 6 and seem to disregard that a woman can have large hips and a skinny waist. I enjoy my strength when I play sports, and my weight when I drink (better tolerance, ya know). Plus, I was always a bit of a tomboy and still hang out with a lot of male friends. That’s taught me that most guys aren’t picky, and that many are happy with women in all shapes and sizes. I realize I’m carrying some extra fat, and I want to get rid of it to be healthier, not so I can (unrealistically) emulate women like Callista Flockart and Jennifer Anniston.
I have no idea how to respond factually to this thread. At all. So I’ll IMHO it until I can think of a way.
I certainly do not like skinny girls, though they may be attractive. I most certainly do not like fat girls, though I’ve dated two myself. I do like girls who are just on the heavy side. Maybe 10-20 lbs overweight.
Supermodels are hot. This is not specifically or exclusively due to their weight. Usually I would attribute proportion itself to the stuff that physical attraction is made. Some people like even proportion… less curviness. Some people like greater proportion: more curviness. Some people, like me, don’t care for those extremes and go for the “average” look. I am immensely attracted to average girls, and I have no idea why. No make-up? Oh man! Loose shirts/flanels and jeans? OH man! Hair put up or down in whatever way the wind happened to be blowing at the time? OH MAN!
For me its a mental thing. The less a girl cares about the way she looks, the more I like her, but…well, I can actually describe my opinions with a mathematical function, and a simple one at that.
y = erl’s attraction level (infinite scale)
x = weight in pounds
a = the amount a girl actively tries to appeal to media’s standards (hard to quantify, I know)
c = erl’s value ascribed instantly to all women just for being female, to which I will assign the arbitrary value of 5.
We have, then, the following:
y = -a(x - 15)[sup]2[/sup] + 5
For the non-mathematically inclined, this is an upside down parabola whose maximum value is sitting just above and to the right of the origin (15, 5).
[rereads post]
So who out there can guess that I’m single from the above alone? I did just make that up for this thread, but it certainly approxiamtes my feelings to a pretty high degree.
Listen to the construction workers, then. They’re honest, they don’t know you, and could care less about your body issues. They think you’re hot, and they’re telling you so.
Given that, who sez you’re losing the “looks game”? And who said there was a game going on in the first place? Advertisers, that’s who, and we know what a bunch of crap they shovel every day. I’d say that with a husband who loves you and constructon workers thinking you’re hot, you’re playing a trump hand.
I should say that x is actually the real difference between the “should be” weight and the actual weight; as in:
actual weight - “should be” weight = x
Just FTR, MODE was created by the folks at Lane Bryant, which is a clothing store that caters to the size 14-26 crowd. So you’d expect to see more Junoesque models in it. (Not that this is a bad thing, and I like Lane Bryant’s clothes.)
Preach it, brother.
As long as you understand that sometimes (key word!) the extra weight is an excuse and a shield for someone who’s afraid the world will reject them anyway.
I appreciate the words from those men who do not share the narrow and stereotypical view of beauty. To my great joy, Mr. Seawitch is one of the same type. And I do think magdalene makes a good point about the aims of the advertisers - after all, the human race got along quite well without FDS under-leg deodorizers before we were all told to worry about smell. I would much prefer they take my money without triggering any neurosis, but I guess they learned what works.
That’s actually something said to me, rather than by me. And as much as I wish that my attitude was all that matters, there are a great many people out there who judge by appearance. Thank you for not being one of them.
You gotta admit, if I were seven feet tall with steel teeth and one eye in the center of my forehead, it’d take a lot of work for the beauty of my soul to shine through. Otherwise, we’d all have seen the Playboy spread on Mother Theresa.
[sub]Kidding. I’m not even close to that tall.[/sub]
But the advertisers who fund the television programs, magazines, and all that “content” you read on MSN, AOL, etc. SPECIFICALLY want you to compare yourself to celebrities and television actors, find yourself wanting, and buy their products to fill the void in your soul.
A sample of the kinds of headlines that scream out from publications targeted toward women:
“Celebrity Weddings: How You Can Achieve Their Style”
“Top Celebrity Styles And How To Get Them”
“What’s Your Celebrity Style?”
“Stars Speak Out About Their Top Beauty Products”
“Diet Secrets of the Stars”
“Top 10 Celebrity Diets”
“How You Can Look Like A Celebrity”
“Celebrity Makeovers!”
So you buy the magazine for the recipes or the fashion ideas or the interview with Julia Roberts, but all this other stuff is pushed at you, reinforced by the television and every movie you’ve ever seen.
In movies and television, fat women or women with curly hair and glasses or women whose boobs are too small are background players deserving of derision or played for laughs (“Shallow Hal”, anyone?) and only emerge into the spotlight after a transformation. How many movies involve the makeover of the shy, mousy wallflower into the princess with the helpful application of the right products and a shopping spree?
So yeah, they are actors, and not “real.” Shakespeare said of actors: “We are such stuff as dreams are made on.” The media knows this, and they teach us to dream of the magical day some popular boy like Freddy Prinze Jr. will make us over into the fucking prom queen. In the meantime they have “10 Tips for Great Skin” we can follow on our own.
Most people want to be normal. It just happens to be that with television now 90% of todays women aren’t normal. For women actually looking good is secondary to looking normal.
It has been subtly pointed out by several people already but isn’t a physical beauty ideal a social construct? Parts of this discussion hint at a nurture/nature debate, but besides the overarching desire in a mate for health (Cindi Crawford-the-leper, anyone?) what are we left with for a yardstick? Knowing that other cultures and older times have produced a vast spectrum of physical ideals (as depicted in artwork, willindorf, catal huyuk, Rubens, etc), it seems a given that the ideal is amazingly malleable at least.
er, to the question at hand… Whack seems pretty on the mark referring to the women/media dilemma as a chicken and egg scenario. Its essentially a question about art and semantics, if Cosmo can be considered as such. Does art dictate what we should/could be or does it only show us what we want to see? Personally, I think it’s both. Feel free to take me to task. =P
One thing I am pretty convinced about, however, is the disparity between cultural yardsticks for men and women. In the West at least, there is a huge gulf in beauty ideals as they relate to age, for example. Although singular exceptions can be cited, I don’t think I’m being presumptuous when I say that men stand an enormously greater chance of retaining their attractiveness as per our culture 50+ than women. Additionally, women seem far more likely to be judged initially by their looks than men. Comments?
Hey, who says Baba Yaga isn’t a sex symbol to somebeing?
Seriously, though, I’m the King of “Fuck 'Em Then” Body Image Philosophy. And I have a friend who’s my current “project”…he has potential, but he’s caught up in the “gay men must be stick-thin or muscular, blond, and empty-headed to get any kind of attention from other gay men”…at least as it applies to himself. It’s frustrating, but I’m kind of subtly steering him into ‘epiphanies’ about himself. It’s like watching a light bulb go on. And every time he realizes that he is most attractive just being himself, I’m so proud of him.
Men like small women. It makes them feel big. That’s my theory, anyway. And I think it’s been true for all of time.
*
Possibly I’m a freak, or at least unusual, but I prefer women who are physically as capable as I am. And that includes height. I don’t tend to go for women who are less than 5’9"; I’m 6’ flat. (This is actually a real problem - chicks that tall can usually do a LOT better than someone like me.) Strangely, I don’t like chicks who are actually taller than me. But just about my own height is primo.
And as another counter-example, this last chick I fell head-over-heels for was A) about 25 pounds overweight and B) a rugby player. Now, she is very pretty in the traditional Aryan blonde/blue-eyed stereotype way. And decently intelligent. And really, really a genuinely nice person. But still, this would seem to provide at least one counter-point to the argument that “men will only go after concentration camp victims.” (“Concentration camp victim” is my current favorite euphemism for “supermodel.” ;D)
I have no quarrel with skinny women, but too skinny doesn’t do it for me. I once saw a stripper who was painfully thin. My friend facetiously remarked “I could break her over my knee.” I looked at her again, and decided he was right. And lost all desire right there.
Anyway, just wanted to say that, although we may be rare, there are a few guys who are not intimidated by (indeed, are attracted to) tallish, athletic chicks.
-Ben
Its the media trying to keep women down by saying ‘your not perfect’, so they can sell them stuff.
If the media said ‘hey, its ok how you look’ it would be bad for the advertisers of all that diet/exercise/beauty crap.
like,i say, in the real world people go out with ‘real’ people.
Women are socialized to their own and other women’s beauty like men are socialized to sports and athletics.
Back when guys were young - all their friends starting getting into sports…say your crowd went in for Basketball in a big way. And even though you didn’t follow basketball, suddenly, that’s what lunchroom talk was about, and you began to pick it up. And even though you sucked at basketball, that’s what your friends wanted to do after school, so you picked it up…and twenty five years later there are still some men who are out there trying to keep up on the basketball court. And, of course, some circles of boys never paid attention to sports at all.
Women start being socialized as young girls to beauty and dieting. Like boys, whose role models are atheletes, girls pull their role models from the media as well - size six models and actresses. Women as well endowed as Pamela Anderson, and as skinny as Kate Moss. Women who probably look pretty funny waking up in the morning, but its their business to look good (I think Julia Roberts is kind of horsey looking - beautiful and charsimatic, but if she weren’t Julia Roberts, she’d be a funny looking redhead with a bad haircut (think PeterPan), too tall, with too many teeth). Lunchroom talk is about diets and makeup and hair. And of course, boys, who you attract through diets and makeup and hair. And yes, you men of the SDMB have moved beyond thinking every girl should look like Jasmine Bleeth, but our opinions of you are formed way back when - back when you were making fun of us for being fat (yeah, I know you didn’t, but there were those other guys), or wearing glasses, or just not looking “right.” And twenty five years later there are still women who constantly diet and can’t leave the house without full makeup – and constantly feel bad about themselves because they’ve set themselves up for an unachievable ideal.
As I’ve gotten older, men I knew back when have told me they found me attractive back when…but they didn’t have the self esteem to say it when they were fifteen. There were plenty of other boys telling me I looked funny, however.
What I’d like to know is why many more boys move beyond their athletic ideal (“I’ll be a professional basketball player” or at least "I’ll be very good at basketball). And why so many women get stuck there and it impacts their self esteem for life.
I did just make that up for this thread, but it certainly approxiamtes my feelings to a pretty high degree.