Some Women's Low Self-Image and the Media

My wife, a few friends and myself got into a discussion about how the media’s portrayal of ‘beautiful’ women is seriously damaging to the self-images of many (if not most) women.

My wife maintained that the media’s constant barrage of images of what is a ‘beautiful’ drives a good deal of the insecurity she feels about herself. The media pushes an ideal that is nearly unobtainable yet many women drive themselves to distraction trying to achieve just that anyway. When they fail (as many will) their self-image takes a second punch in the gut (from failure and that they believe they still don’t look good).

My question is something of a ‘chicken and egg’ dilemma. Are women at the mercy of some media conspiracy or do they themselves drive what the media feels it should be showing?

Consider the following:

  • Who buys Vogue and Seventeen? One would think if women didn’t like how those magazines made them feel due to all of the pretty models in ads (and ads compose the vast majority of those magazines) then they wouldn’t buy them. If they stopped buying the magazine or the products advertised the advertisers and magazines would have to adjust or go out of business.

  • What constitutes the ‘pretty’ woman that some women feel they must try and emulate (at least in looks)? It’s a moving target. Marilyn Monroe was quite large by today’s model standards. Later you got Twiggy who was extremely skinny. Then you get Elle McPherson and the athletic look. Nowadays models seem to be pushing an almost boyish look. Which target are women aiming for? While any man may have a preference I think most men would say all of the women just listed were (are) very pretty and would be happy with any one of them at his side (the point being that there isn’t just one bodytype that can be quite beautiful…beauty covers a broad range).

  • “It’s what men like.” Doesn’t work either. I saw a study (looking for a cite) where they showed women a range of pictures of female body types (from skinny to heavy and everything in between) and were asked to choose what they thought men liked most. Women consistently picked body sizes one or two (out of maybe ten total) below the body size men most consistently picked out of the same pictures. Is the media that out of touch? Women don’t like being pushed to extreme skinniness. Men don’t seem to prefer extreme skinniness. Who figures out what the next supermodel should look like anyway and what are they basing their decisions upon?

  • Why don’t men suffer from this as much (relatively speaking)? Male models are just as buff and studly as their female counterparts are beautiful. Those bodies are also just as hard for men to obtain as the ‘ideal’ body is for a woman (I think you mostly have to be born to it and still have to work hard to refine and maintain it).

Obviously American society drives home the need for women to conform to some almost mythical body. If it didn’t we probably wouldn’t see bulemia and anorexia or a multi-billion dollar diet industry. Women are clearly caused a great deal of stress by this (to the point that some die in pursuit of this ‘ideal’).

Is this some sort of warped conspiracy? Is it a male dominated industry coming up with its own ideals regardless of anything else? Is this a convergence of many factors of which women are as much a part of the problem as they are the victims? Anything else you can think of?

Finally, if you want to fix this, where do you start?

If I might plug a previous thread on the subject, try this

Well, call me affected by the media, but these studies always make me scoff. Men have been conditioned to say they like ‘normal’ or ‘curvy’ looking women because they’ll be beaten bloody if they don’t. My husband HAS to say that he loves my body, but come on. There’s plenty of stuff wrong with it. I find it very hard to believe that he wouldn’t prefer me looking like Angelina Jolie, with a perfect flat tummy and small perky tits.

There was an article this month in Marie Claire where a woman was put in a ‘fat suit’ (it made her a size 14 :rolleyes:) and she said she was amazed at how much men loved her having curves. Bull.

I buy Cosmo not because it makes me feel good about myself, but really, because it makes me feel…bad about myself. I cut out pictures of body parts that I would like to have and use them as inspiration to work out. :slight_smile:

Men like small women. It makes them feel big. That’s my theory, anyway. And I think it’s been true for all of time.

jarbaby

IzzyR:
It figures this has been done before. I seem to recall having asked once before myself a long time ago but when I did a search I found neither my thread (if it ever existed) nor your thread. I guess I have to polish my searching skills.

I’m surprised at the lack of response in your earlier thread. IIRC my earlier thread didn’t fare any better either. I’m kinda surprised about this since it is a current issue and we probably all know women who are struggling with this.

Maybe people feel it is too difficult or too broad a topic to get a grasp on. Maybe the issue is too sensitive and/or painful for people to want to wade in to it. Or maybe it’s just a dumb topic for debate and no one wants to waste time or electrons exploring it (I’m afraid it’s most likely this last one…hopefully not though).

I’m still curious about what people think about this so hopefully we’ll get some takers this time. Either that or feel free to resurrect IzzyR’s old thread if the debate posed there is more to your liking. I just want to see it hashed out. Maybe I can find a way to help some of the women in my life less concerned about what the media throws at them.

Competition, me brother. Women are locked in a constant struggle with one another to be be prettiest, happiest, first married, most well-off, what have you. Women are far harsher and more critical of one another than men are. Besides, women buy these magazines with pictures of these models because, as one editor put it, “everyone likes looking at pretty girls,” even women.

I’d describe modern models more as “heroin addicts” than boyish. The modern runway model, at least, tends to have the shape of a coatrack and the pallid, waxy complexion common to those folks you see hanging around methodone clinics. This is NOT a look I find attractive at all. I believe David Spade put it best during one of his “Hollywood Minute” segments on Saturday Night Live: “Why don’t the designers just make the clothes, and let the heterosexuals pick the pretty girls?”

While it’s true that attractiveness follows no single body type, there are some constants, the main one being “health”. There’s some evidence that we, either consciously or subconsciously, select as our mates people who we believe to epitomize health. For women, that usually means a certain amount of curviness and the 7/10 waist/hip ratio we’ve discussed on this board before. For men, that usually means large strong shoulders and a butt of a particular style that I haven’t really figured out yet (honestly, I don’t know what women see in men’s butts).

The screwballs who design the clothes. Personally, as I said, I don’t care for “heroin chic”, but whatever. I can certainly understand the reasoning of the modern designer who wants a model that’s really just a walking coathanger with little if any discernible shape: they want to showcase the clothes, not the girl wearing them. Still, ew.

I read a while back that men actually like women heavier than women assume that men like, and women like men to be lighter than men assume that women like. So each gender is clueless as to what the other is thinking, what else is new.

Because the female is the standard of beauty in our society, and men simply don’t compete by that standard. As a result, men compete on levels other than appearance, such as financial security and physical health.

Yeah, that’s pretty much my assessment. Most women tell me that, when they dress really nice or get a makeover, they don’t want to look good for men, but for women. Women are far more critical of other women than men could ever be.

Well, step one would be to get more “real women” in highly visible media. I don’t think Hollywood is fooling us anymore, with its portrayals of Julia Roberts as “the ugly siter” or Janeane Garofalo as less attractive than Uma Thurman. However, I’m worried at the moment about these so-called “reality TV” shows that blatantly enlist people quite high up on the attractiveness scale as though they were average folk.

But you know, part of me wonders if perhaps this doesn’t do some good. I mean, if we weren’t dissatisfied, we’d never change, right? Perhaps by providing incentive to struggle, we’re becoming a healthier nation! Then I remind myself that it’s really just providing an incentive to get fat surgically sucked out of our lazy asses. Oh well.

While the OP was specifically talking about American society today I’m going to break out of that restriction for a moment to illustrate a point.

I was watching a show with Desmond Morris as the host discussing human sexuality. Taking the obligatory grain of salt when getting our info from the TV he mentioned that there are only two things regarding beauty that seems to hold true across all societies.

Health and youth.

If you look to history you can see very full-figured women being used in artwork…hardly a skinny girl to be found among the lot. In Africa there is some area where the women pad their asses to make them look bigger. Apparently big asses are a turn on for the men there.

In the US some people like tatoos, some don’t. Some like body piercings, some don’t. Some like long hair, some like it short. Some like blonds, some like brunettes. (etc., etc.)

My point is I think you must be VERY careful in trying to state unequivocally that there is really any ideal out there. I believe if you pressed anyone to define what ultimate beauty is for them you’d get as many answers as people you asked.

This is precisely the issue I am trying to expose in the OP and one I seem to be unsuccessfully communicating to some of the women in my life. Is Claudia Schiffer beautiful? Yes. Is my wife beautiful? Yes. One doesn’t preclude the other and there is NO need for my wife to think she has to strive to look like Claudia Schiffer (or anyone else for that matter).

Unfortunately the media seems to be drowning out my protestations so I’m hoping to find a new spin here.

Usually when gripes like this come up, I whip out the old suck it up, life is tough, ignore them or change yourself… blah blah blah but this issue is a shade of gray.

My gf,when in “out-of-shape-mode” compares herself CONSTANTLY to actresses and picks them apart: "So and so is toooo skinny, Acco, don’t you think?" wink wink. “Uhhh, yeah.”

But when she’s in shape, she compares herself with her friends (behind their back of course): "So and so is soooo fat, Acco, don’t you think?" wink wink. “uhhh, yeah.”

And I think to myself: girls do it to themselves. They have no one to blame but themselves. Like many have stated earlier, the level of peer competition among girls is astronomical…

Just to keep their pride above water, they crave validation in a world plastered with pretty faces and ever-so-nice asses.

That’s all I have to say about that. For now.

Well, that’s why I said it’s my theory, and by theory I mean opinion. I test it all the time. Every time I see a small breasted, thin, flat stomached woman that I would much rather be, I say to my husband/friend/coworker who is a man:

“Isn’t she beautiful?”

the answer is usually, “Yes.”

I am a medium build, size ten, big chested woman. Obviously not the one they just said was beautiful.

Men, (in my circle, in my life and in my experience of trying to be an actress) don’t like a woman who may have more physical strength or are bigger than they are. I think this is why i’m attracted to big burly, muscley menacing guys. They make me feel smaller.

Well. Just from my shallow woman severely affected by the media point of view, Claudia Schiffer is a beautiful, successful, rich, happy model. I am working in an office. Perhaps were I a size six with better bones, I could be richer, happier more successful person. So I’m striving to look more like her.

Whacked? You bet.

jarbaby

But girls don’t do it to themselves. Somewhere along the line we’re taught that there is nothing more critical than our appearance.

You don’t see too many three- or four-year-olds dieting and saying they’re “too fat.”

We’re (I’m female) learning it somewhere. The media, yes, but surely the influence comes from elsewhere, too.

IMHO Men are taught similar lessons, but they don’t (generally) involve appearance.

OK, you’re affected by the media.

Sorry: Bull. Men generally say what’s on their mind, especially around other men. I personally like itty-bitty curves on a tall woman (which is a little unusual), -or- just a bit of extra flesh, where the bones don’t poke out all over the place (think Kate Winslet in “Titanic”). The vast majority of men I know agree with me on the Kate Winslet thing.

Have you so little faith that your husband isn’t telling you the honest truth? Have you so little faith in his Judgement? How can you call him down on this and not lose some of your respect for him? Maybe one day you oughtta try this little experiment: Look at yourself in the mirror and say “I trust my husband. He likes my body. I’m just fine”. Repeat until you lose the urge to beat-up on yourself.

Ever see that “Venus of Willendorf” statue from Europe? It’s thousands of years old, and no two ways about it: She’s fat. What about Rubens? Go ahead, call the women he painted “small”. Then there’s the Greeks. Ever take a look at their statuary? The men may be ripped, but the women are all curves.

Men don’t like “small women”, men like women. Period. In all their sizes, shapes, and colors.

I personally have more body image issues than you can shake a stick at. Many of them have specific causes (ballet training, where you can never, ever be thin enough), but I always feel they are hammered into me day after day.

My genetic heritage seems to be Strong, Hardy Pioneer Wife. I’m tall, strong, and inclined to be heavy. Granted, I can step in and pull the plow if the mule dies. However, my physical strength has often been regarded as a liability, and definately not feminine. Far smaller women are on every magazine and billboard I see, women I look nothing like. I get pretty damn tired of endless reminders that I am not beautiful. I almost died from bulemia in college - and never became beautiful.

A lot of these feelings are true, if in less severe form, in most women. I tend to blame the media the most, but I think the entire society, male and female, shares in the madness. I have no idea how to correct it - I just do whatever I can, generally in the form of a teeny little economic boycott. My only exception to this is Cosmo. I buy it because it reminds me that although I will never be beautiful, I’m pretty intelligent.

I usually find that I agree with the JarBaby, but she’s wrong in this case. i DO like curves. If you need any proof that a lot of men do, look at all the threads with “Boobs” in the title. I prefer non-SmallPerky types. Pepper Mill is convinced her rear is too big – but I think all women do. I think she has a fantastic rear.

So I definitely vote against the supertall superthin model sterotype. Doesn’t appeal to me at all. They need some meat on them bones.

Look, either you like perfect flat stomachs or you don’t. There must be a way to put this into a math theorem.

Gwenyth Paltrow has a washboard flat stomach.

Jarbaby does not.

Mr. Jarbaby says Gwenyth Paltrow is hot.

therefore, I am not, because I don’t have that tummy.

I have a lot of faith in my husband that he’s a better person than I. I know that he wants me to feel good about myself, so he tells me that I’m pretty even though I’m overweight with saggy tits and one eye smaller than the other. I know he loves me for my sense of humor and my mind and my good cooking :smiley: But I know it ain’t because I’m being offered $1,000,000 by playboy.
jarbaby

Feh. Who said so?

God, you should see Mrs. Tranq. Broad, square shoulders, legs like young oaks, carrying a bit more weight than she ideally oughtta. So what? She’s smart, strong, capable, loving, funny, and d*mned dangerous in a fight. I couldn’t ask for more beauty. She’s not the only beautiful woman in the world, but by jiminy, she’s certainly one of them!

As long as you keep saying so, it’ll be true.

That’s a prime determiner for beauty that lasts past the first glance.

jarbaby –

Someone must’ve told you all about us men: how we’re quite fastidiously picky about the women after whom we will lust and, in particular, how a woman would have to be a truly spectacular and unusually beautiful physical specimen in order to cause us to look and long for her just because of her physical appearance.

I suggest that you go find this person and administer a hard slap.

PS–which guys do you stare at, if you don’t mind me asking?

I don’t see this as a gender thing at all. The body image of women certainly gets quite a bit of media attention (oh, the irony), but I think it affects men to a great degree as well.

There’s certainly not a day that goes by that I don’t wish I was more muscular, stronger, better looking in every way, etc.

And jarbabyj, men really do tend to like the look of “real” sized women more than scrawny models. Not all of us, of course, but I think it’s safe to say that the majority do.

Big, muscley burly guys with six pack stomachs and angular jaws, since you ask. :smiley: And my husband looks nothing like that.

The difference is, he hasn’t had someone tell him that he’d be more successful in life if he’d just lose 30 pounds like I have, and he hasn’t been called a fat-ass c*** at a bears game, so it doesn’t weigh on his mind so much. (that I know of)

jarbaby

Man, it is moments like this that I feel so bad for women because these are issues men rarely, if ever, contemplate.

I’m just gonna lay this out there - lack of tact be damned.

Really what do you want, ladies? WHAT DO YOU WANT???!!! I’m asking you.

Do you want to be desired by men?

If so, I’ve got good news for you. Guys are slimy… Well, I am slimy. If I was not involved with another, and the world was my concubine, I would be willing to have sex with at least 85-90% of the women out there. Seriously. No questions asked. There are levels of attraction, but beauty truly is in the eye of the beholder.

So remember, you are VERY desirable to men.

Do you want to be worshipped by other, uglier women? Do you need that constant ego-boost?

Well, in that case you are letting the media affect you too much. You are letting other people’s opinions affect you too much. Look inside yourself. Learn to love yourself for who you are. Find someone who will love you for who you are.

Why try to pander to people you don’t care about in the least??? Approval-seeking behavior is weak, not sexy, and phony and WILL LEAD TO YOUR UNHAPPINESS. Project your image of yourself to the world. Don’t let the world project its image of you on you… confidence is sexy.

Do you want to be perfect in every way?

Well me too, and everyone else, but that’s not the case. Let us bow our heads, cry, let it all out, and get on with our lives.

Jarbabyj, seawitch, and other SDMB ladies:

I wish I could reach out and hug you all to make you feel better. My heart breaks for you all and your image of yourselves.
But as any regular-looking Joe you pass on the street who you don’t know, you shouldn’t care what I think of you in a bathing suit. Because truth be told, I’d probably “want that body”, anyway. (I’m trying not to sound creepy, believe me.) But its the truth. At least take it for what it’s worth.

That’s all I have to say about that. For now.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by jarbabyj *

Mr. Jarbaby says Gwenyth Paltrow is hot.

therefore, I am not, because I don’t have that tummy.

[QUOTE]

GGgrrrrr…

YOU. ARE. NOT. GETTING. IT.

There is NO single standard for beauty. One standard does not preclude others. Men are fully capable of holding multiple standards at once (I’ve yet to meet any man that didn’t hold at least two or three different standards, at a minimum).
Again, let me use myself as an example: My first love was tall, extrodinarily slender, and had no breasts to speak of, yet when she walked down the street, men’s eyes clicked. My God, but she was feminine. My next love was also tall, but at 5’8" and 155#, could in no way meet the fashion model ideal. She was so sexy that guys hit on her while we were kissing! The next girl in my life was short, dark, and plump, but again, she had what it takes…

I could go on, but I’m sure you see where I’m going.

If I didn’t know better, I’d think you were deliberately missing the point to hear more nice things said…

We live in advertising culture. Everything is an “industry” - the fashion industry, the cosmetics industry, the diet industry.

What did we do before Slim-Fast, Clear Pore Strips, Swiss Formula Facial Scrub, Salon Selectives, Garnier Nutrisse Hair Color, Clearisil, Jenny Craig, the Ab-Roller, Age-Defying Lipcolor, etc…I mean, how did we LIVE?

Somehow, we survived. :slight_smile:

The makers of these products need to create a market for these items, and they way they do it is to make women think about and react to their flaws, combined with images of flawless women. Do we think for a minute that Jennifer Love Hewitt has ever needed Neutrogena Acne-Fighting Body Wash in her life? The commercial makes us think about our own embarrassing back-ne and Hewitt’s creamy-skinned perfection and it triggers us to buy, buy, buy!

So, class, what is the most prominent media in America today?
Answer: Television
Who creates, sponsors, and funds television programs?
Answer: Advertisers
What do advertisers want?
Answer: To foster self-esteem, a sense of well-being, and critical thinking patterns in all TV viewers?

No, they want the exact opposite. For the most part, they want to tap into your insecurities and control your aspirations and make you believe that their products will transform you into the pretty things they show you on TV. Because the worse you feel about yourself, the more money you’ll spend on their products.

Men aren’t immune - look at the Rogaine ads where the man looks at his thinning hair in the mirror while the announcer wonders aloud if his wife will still love him if he loses his hair.

The above applies absolutely to fashion magazines. The magazines are there to sell you the pretty baubles and potions hawked by the advertisers. All those articles about makeovers and workouts and diets are accompanied by specific product recommendations. It’s a given that you are going to use some kind of “product”, let our faithful editors help you select the right one.

It’s worked frighteningly well, so now when we see a normal person on television, someone who looks like us, something in our mind tells us that he/she looks “wrong” - too fat, not well dressed enough, look at the size of her pores! We are shocked when we see foreign films that would dare display imperfect people naked. Even the movie stars that we aspire to be like have body issues, hiring “body doubles” to mask THEIR imperfections, every weight fluctuation is headline material.

I’ve read that women of color tend to have fewer body issues because most advertising and television programs aren’t targeted toward them - the few women of color shown on television don’t represent a standard-making saturation. Does anyone have any stats on this?