"Sorry, my suspension of disbelief doesn't stretch that far." (Open Spoilers)

Cafe Society
101

[QUOTE=Spatial Rift 47]
I’ve spoken with my father, a CPA, about this issue. He tells me that a moneyless economy based on a general reciprocity principle would be quite stable. Only thing is, it’s a bitch to get there from here.
[/QUOTE]

Sorry, but I’ve never been able to buy this idea either. Humans are naturally greedy and naturally lazy. It has long been known that there is a direct correlation between the amount of effort a person will put into something and the reward he expects to receive. This is why car salesmen will bend over backwards to please you, while the minimum-wage earners at Wal-Mart can’t be bothered to even tell you where the bathrooms are. Communist countries found this out the hard way. Work ethic in places like the Soviet Union was pathetic. Nobody could be bothered to give anything more than the absolute minimum of effort. (I’m told this by people who actually went to the Soviet Union during the “Glastnost” peroid.) It’s probably not a coincidence that the Soviet Union needed to enact compulsory military service to maintain an adequate defense force.
frankly, Star Trek created a perfect future by assuming that humans will stop acting like humans.

102

[QUOTE=Max Torque]
And the dog in the tunnel ticked me off too. I mean, there are people running by, about to die, but does she tell any of them that she found a safe hiding place? Nope, she calls her rackin’-frackin’ dog. Way to prioritize. I mean, following a huge city-destroying disaster, I’d rather have companions who can reason and use tools, not one I’d have to scrounge food for every day, but I guess that’s just me. Let the people die, they’re not “cute”.
[/QUOTE]

I can see the advantages of a dog over another person in a post-apocalyptic scenario. Doesn’t need as much food, better guard at night, won’t try to slit your throat over the last can of baked beans on Earth. Scrounging for food for the dog? Probably the other way around, after a few days. We didn’t domesticate dogs so we’d have something to shed on our couches, after all.

103

[QUOTE=Diceman]
frankly, Star Trek created a perfect future by assuming that humans will stop acting like humans.
[/QUOTE]

That is actually one of the central premises of Star Trek: that the humans in the show are more “evolved” (Socially, if not biologically) than humans of the 20th and earlier centuries, and are no longer subject to things like greed and petty jealousy.

Which is why Star Trek is boring.

104

[QUOTE=Diceman]
Sorry, but I’ve never been able to buy this idea either. Humans are naturally greedy and naturally lazy. It has long been known that there is a direct correlation between the amount of effort a person will put into something and the reward he expects to receive. This is why car salesmen will bend over backwards to please you, while the minimum-wage earners at Wal-Mart can’t be bothered to even tell you where the bathrooms are. Communist countries found this out the hard way. Work ethic in places like the Soviet Union was pathetic. Nobody could be bothered to give anything more than the absolute minimum of effort. (I’m told this by people who actually went to the Soviet Union during the “Glastnost” peroid.) It’s probably not a coincidence that the Soviet Union needed to enact compulsory military service to maintain an adequate defense force.
frankly, Star Trek created a perfect future by assuming that humans will stop acting like humans.
[/QUOTE]

Not that I buy it either, but I can fanwank TNG’s utopia by saying that it was only that way on top. There was a DS9 in which a furious Sisko–himself a native Earthman, but one who hasn’t lived there in a long time–blames the problems with the Maquis on the fact that Earth is a paradise and as a result the people there are completely unrealistic about the way the rest of the galaxy works. I think Starfleet is composed largely of the really ambitious, self-motivated people (well, them and Will Riker) who aren’t content to spend all their time wanking in the holodeck. Either that, or there wasn’t nearly as much wealth available to the average Terran as the series made it seem. Most likely Starfleet officers are paid in replicator/holodeck/transporter credits, and they get a lot more of those than people in the private sector.

105

[QUOTE=kawaiitentaclebeast]
Perhaps, but I imagine you can get a lot closer to an antelope on the Serengeti than you can a human opponent.

[/QUOTE]

Only if you’re flying Airwolf, in stealth mode.

[QUOTE=kawaiitentaclebeast]

Antelopes don’t try to find cover and shoot back.
[/QUOTE]

They don’t sit still either. Have you seen a gazelle run? Really?

106

[QUOTE=BMalion]
Hell, I used to bullseye womp-rats from my T-65 back home and they’re not much bigger than 2 meters.
[/QUOTE]

:smiley:

107

[QUOTE=KJ]
Now that somebody mentioned Star Trek…

I can believe in a giant starship with dozens of decks full of people zipping through space at the speed of light. I can believe in aliens that all happen to look like people wearing lots of makeup. But one thing I can never suspend my disbelief enough to accept is the idea that there’s no money in the future. Humankind has evolved past the point where we need material possessions? Uh huh. Right. No, I guarantee you that even if money were completely phased out officially, something else that serves the exact same purpose would be created, replicators or not. And there’s no television in the future? Give me a break.
[/QUOTE]

Well, the original series had quite a few references to “credits”. The simplest way to explain away most of the “we don’t use money” bits is to assume that they mean that currency (i.e. pieces of paper or bits of metal with pictures of dead Federation presidents) isn’t in use.

108

I’m surprised no one yet mentioned early in Star Wars, where the fighters take off into open space from an atmospheric void with a loud sound heard across the vacuum.

I guess I was spoiled by the strong attempt at realism in 2001, and even tho Star Wars was set in “a galaxy far, far away,” I wasn’t expecting the laws of physics to be that different.

Not quite what the OP is asking for, but John Williams’ music in Star Wars also seemed odd. For such a different planet/galaxy/solar system, I was expecting something more progressive than retreaded 19th century orchestral music styles.

What bothers me about Star Trek is the cardboard sets, not to mention the requirement to suspend disbelief that Shatner can act.

109

[QUOTE=Steve MB]
Well, the original series had quite a few references to “credits”. The simplest way to explain away most of the “we don’t use money” bits is to assume that they mean that currency (i.e. pieces of paper or bits of metal with pictures of dead Federation presidents) isn’t in use.
[/QUOTE]

Also, there was definitely actual, physical money on DS9: gold-pressed latinum (the latinum was what was valuable, not the gold, and it was valuable because it could not be replicated; the gold was just for containment.)

110

[QUOTE=OtakuLoki]
And, remember, at this same time in the movie, there’s a big point being made about how the only airport that can contact those planes in orbit around Dulles is the hijacked Dulles control center. No matter that the phones are working well for other purposes. So, why can’t they call the control centers in, say, Reagan, and have the flight controllers there tell the pilots to bingo to other strips? AIUI it’s normally bad form for one ATC to ‘step’ on another’s frequencies, but in a FUBAR like this, it would be easily done.
[/QUOTE]
This is the big problem, and it’s worse than you think. The controllers at Dulles spend the whole movie trying to find some way to communicate with the circling airplanes. “Oh, if we only had some sort of transmitter,” they say. Guys, you don’t need to send your SWAT team to the annex skywalk, and you don’t need to call another airport; every plane parked on the ground, all around you, and there are probably dozens of them, has got a transmitter on it.

111

Even without shields, the alien fighters in Independance Day should have plowed through the F-18’s like Zeros through Buffalo. (Semi-obscure WW2 ref.)

The Matrix. Humans scorched the sky? Humans? We’re the ones who eat plants to live, not the machines! And how could human waste heat and electricity (No, Mr. machine you can’t have my nervous electricity, I’m using that to live.) generate a net gain of useful energy? And even if it could, why is it necessary for the humans to be conscious? Or why couldn’t the machines have used, say, cows?

112

I was going to post my love :rolleyes: of the latest War of the Worlds, including the plane crashing in the neighborhood, yet leaving the van and a path out intact…

But that whole movie was just too stupid to bother with. I can’t even enjoy snarking it, it was so dumb.

113

I found it too hard to believe that in Unbreakable, the wife’s favorite song was “Soft and Wet” by Prince. That was way too implausible for me to get past. I was able to accept all the other crazy stuff (like how long in life it took Bruce Willis to realize how invincible he is…WTF?), but “Soft and Wet”? Get out of here.

I know, I know, a character’s taste in music is nowhere comparable to dodging hundreds of bullets while running past a submarine in a Venician canal after jumping out of an airplane sans parachute…but still. I looooove Prince, but that song is too mediocre to pass off as being any sane person’s favorite. Who you trying to fool, M. Night?

114

I’ll take a crack at the “no money in Star Trek” argument.

Thing is, in Star Trek you have replicators that can produce literally anything. Food, clothing, consumer goods, anything except living beings.

But a transporter (which is really an upgraded replicator) could be used to living things, we see it happen several times by accident in the Star Trek universe. How many copies of Kirk or Riker do you need? If you can do it once by accident, with a little research you can do it on an industrial scale. But nevermind that, ethics, blah blah blah.

Back to the replicators themselves. What does it mean when you live in a society where you can have any object you wish at the punch of a button? All you need is a pattern and you can have a duplicate of the crown jewels, you can have a 12 course gourmet meal, you can have books, you can have fine art, you can have ANYTHING. Just push a button and out it comes. And you have ubiquitous communication, ubiqutious computing, travel anywhere on earth as easily as punching a button.

Now do you see why there’s not much use for “money” in the Federation? Of course there are some things that can’t come out of a replicator, like any skilled personal services, land, “original” objects, handmade goods, latinum, maybe the replicators on earth won’t let you order a phaser or certain mind control devices.

Everyone’s basic human needs for food and shelter are taken care of via replicator for free. Everyone has access to just about any entertainment they could imagine, for free. Anyone can travel anywhere on earth for free. Any toy or piece of equipment you can imagine is provided free. So what jobs can most people DO? For most people any “job” they have is really a hobby, they only do it because they like to. So if you have a restaurant (like Sisko’s father) you can’t make any money, you just have a restaurant because you LIKE having a restaurant, and farmers supply you with real unreplicated ingredients because they want someone to appreciate and eat what they grow, and people go to the restaurant just because they feel like it. A gift economy makes sense, because every good or service anyone can produce is by definition a luxury good, absolutely no one really needs anything anyone can produce.

It’s my theory that “Star Fleet” isn’t really part of the Earth’s government. There really is no earth government. Star Fleet is just a club for eccentrics who like to build and play with spaceships, and they have certain traditions they like to observe. You could build your own spaceship from a replicator and fly around the universe with it yourself, except it’s kind of dangerous if you don’t know what you’re doing, and it’s more fun to do it with your friends.

115

[QUOTE=Skald the Rhymer]
Also, there was definitely actual, physical money on DS9: gold-pressed latinum (the latinum was what was valuable, not the gold, and it was valuable because it could not be replicated; the gold was just for containment.)
[/QUOTE]

And of course GPL was not a Federation currency, but one used by the Ferengi and other species.

For reference, one of the few times that Federation economics are discussed in any detail is in the episode “In the Cards” (DS9).

As for the 26-hour Bajoran day, keep an ear open during episodes of DS9. I’ve been rewatching the series, and I find that they are surprisingly good about consistently saying things like “26 hours a day” or “for the next 52 hours” (where we would naturally say “for the next 48 hours”).

116

I’ve heard that Gary Larsen calls a lot of these “mosquito errors”. There’s a Far Side comic with a male mosquito coming home, throwing his hat off, and telling his wife what a long day he had drinking blood. He got all sorts of letters complaining about it - people had no problem with mosquitos wearing coats and hats, being married, having cute little decorated domiciles - but they were furious because only female mosquitos drink blood.

117

I’m exactly the opposite as the OP - I would buy the Flash flying a lot more than I could Superman’s.

Superman starts with a huge bound - fine. But then he can swoop down to catch someone falling, and parabolically change his trajectory back up into the air! What the hell source of propulsion is there? He can hang in air - then dart off! WTF!?

I can’t stand Superman.

On the other hand, the Flash should be able to fly by using a motion like swimming underwater. Air is a fluid - push through it fast enough and you can lift yourself.

Other disbeliefs I just can’t suspend are random. It bugs the hell out of me in Harry Potter when he’s taking an astrology test in OotP at 11 at night, and marking where he sees Venus - I don’t care if you’re a wizard or not, Venus is never going to be up at 11 at night - you’re looking out away from the sun. Similarly, it was June, and Orion was high in the sky. It bothered me so much I had a hard time concentrating on the narrative.

Or in MacBeth - the stupid prophecies are so dumb and so lamely “ironically” circumvented that I am “jerked out of the fictive dream,” as it were. “No man of woman born…” - a C-section is “of woman born”! You could sic a pack of wolves on Macbeth, and I’d be OK, or (too obvious) have a woman kill MacBeth (not believable, you say? - this is the play that has Lady MacBeth in it - Elizabethans could believe a woman capable of stabbing someone). “We’ll carry the woods up the hillside; it will conceal our number” - again: huh? That’s the dumbest military strategy I’ve ever heard.

118

[QUOTE=Diceman]
Humans are naturally greedy and naturally lazy.

<snip>

frankly, Star Trek created a perfect future by assuming that humans will stop acting like humans.
[/QUOTE]

Wrong. This is an error brought about by the ways of modern Western culture. It is not a general rule for all human beings. As counterexamples, consider the Sioux, the [a href=http://www.collectionscanada.ca/obj/s4/f2/dsk2/ftp01/MQ36858.pdf]Mi’Kmaq (pdf, page 81), and the !Kung (Invitation to Anthropology, Luke Eric Lassiter) peoples, none of whom have laws, crime, courts, police or jails. Greed is a cultural construct of our society, so there’s no reason why the fictional society in Star Trek should have to have it.

Also, everything Lemur866 said about money. I would also suggest the need for strong social pressure to be productive with one’s time.

119

Dammit. Fixed Mi’Kmaq link. Still a pdf, still page 81.

120

[QUOTE=FairyChatMom]
I was going to post my love :rolleyes: of the latest War of the Worlds, including the plane crashing in the neighborhood, yet leaving the van and a path out intact…
[/QUOTE]

Still, I found the

train on fire screaming through the mad anarchical crowd

to be a REALLY interesting piece of cinema.