matt: If Quebec ever leaves Canada, d’ya think the US could scoop up the rest? We’d give y’all as many buffets and fried foods as you could stomach.
clairobscur, I am not well informed but that attitude you mention could be provoked by a combination of several things: the new king’s youth and inexperience, a need to drum up some domestic support and gain popularity, etc. There have already been the predictable “spontaneous” demonstrations in front of the Spanish embassy in Rabat demanding the return of Ceuta, Melilla etc. (Either that or a visa to go live in Spain) You have to wonder what it feels to be a young man and be given a country to rule as you wish.
matt_mcl, Quebec can say whatever they want but if they want me to understand they better say it in English. I can guarantee you that a unilateral declaration of independence with the opposition of the rest of Canada would not be internationally recognised except by Lybia or some such country. Whether any of the several US states can unilaterally secede was settled some time ago and the answer is they cannot, they have to go to the senate and be nice and say pretty please, then, if the rest of the states feel like it they can agree to anything. But good luck maintaining the thesis that the residents of West Undershirt county in Alabama can unilaterally declare their independence from the oppression of the US.
Derleth: No.
sailor:
Oh? How can you guarantee me that? The province of Quebec has diplomatic representation in a number of countries, such as France. And the UN recognizes the right of a people to self-determination.
This is not to suggest that there wouldn’t be an enormous kerfuffle while everyone tried to get everything sorted out, nor that Quebec would necessarily BE recognized either. But you are wrong to suggest that it couldn’t possibly be recognized.
I am confused as to why you bring up American states, since Quebec is not an American state. It is a Canadian province, and we lack the provisions that the US has that (IIRC) specifically forbid states to withdraw from the union.
You make your claim in a very odd tone of voice which makes me wonder whether you are familiar with the Canadian constitutional situation or the various debates which have taken place over the years regarding the effects of Quebec separation. You are wrong to imply that its implications would be as trivial as those of a county in rural Alabama (Why is it always Alabama?) claiming to have seceded from the union.
You know, I think this situation is sufficiently serious that the UN should send in peacekeeping troops.
I think a Sergant, a Corporal and two PFC’s would be an appropriate peacekeeping force.
>> I think a Sergant, a Corporal and two PFC’s would be an appropriate peacekeeping force.
Nah, I think some strippers, sandwhiches and beer would be better. At least it would take the pressure off the goats.
matt_mcl
>> The province of Quebec has diplomatic representation in a number of countries, such as France.
As I said, “except by Lybia or some such country”. In fact, according to UN statistics, dislike for America has been running at substantially equal levels in France and in Lybia for the last 30 years except for a brief increase in Lybia when Reagan ordered the bombing of Tripoli and killed Ghadaffi’s favorite goat. According to the same source, if the current rate continues, personal hygiene habits in Lybia will be at the level of France by the end of this year. I believe they also have goats in France but I could not verify this with certainty. At any rate, France and Lybia are hard to tell apart from here.
>> And the UN recognizes the right of a people to self-determination.
That’s what I thought too and I tried it to get out of a traffic ticket but the judge wouldn’t buy it. I ended having to pay the ticket plus court costs in spite of having declared myself independently autonomous and sovereign. I hate it when they abridge your human rights with such impunity.
>> I am confused as to why you bring up American states,
Um, yes, I guess you are confused. Have you heard of early-onset Alzheimer’s? You can get it as early as your late teens. Anyway, if you scroll up (yes, the tab on the right) you will see you brought up Quebec after and as a response to my saying “If all the population of Oregon tomorrow decided they wanted to leave the US and join Canada, it is not like they can do it without consulting the rest of the US” to which you said “Hm, I’m not so sure about that, being a citizen of Quebec. But let’s not get into it now”. In summary:
me: Oregon cannot unilaterally secede from the US
you: I’m not so sure about that, being a citizen of Quebec.
me: (a) The question of whether US states (of which Oregon is one) can unilaterally secede has been settled already in a forceful and very convincing manner, (b) A unilateral secesion of Quebec would not be recognised by the majority of the international community (except by France and no one would understand them anyway) and © what does Quebec have to do with Oregon?
you: Quebec is not an American State
me: Oregon is not Quebec
you: The UN recognizes the right of a people to self-determination
me: For Alabama too?
you: Why do you always have to bring up Alabama?
me: Alabama is not Quebec either
you: So you are equating Alabama and Oregon?
me: NO. I said Oregon cannot join Canada except over Washinton’s dead body.
you: But Washington is buried in Virginia
me: Yeah and if he were alive today he’d turn over in his grave.
Anyway, at this point I am a bit confused so maybe we should draw a diagram which would make things clearer to all. Just to clarify: I am assuming, and please correct me if I am wrong, that when you say “Canada” you refer to that northern part of the US where people believe they are not actually owned by the US. And Quebec I believe is where they speak funny, sort of like New Orleans but without the Jazz, the Mardi Gras or the good food. In other words, without the three things that make New Orleans worth the while. And since you seem to know about Quebec, let me ask you, is there any truth to what I’ve heard that the people there speak funny because they’re born with something genetically wrong with their mouths? Or is that an Urban Legend? Personally I find it hard to believe but, on the other hand, I can’t find a reason they would choose to speak so strangely.
>> You make your claim in a very odd tone of voice
It’s the one I’ve had since puberty. The doctor said it would improve over the years but it didn’t happen. It is quite a handicap when dealing with the opposing sex (they are very opposing with me).
>> makes me wonder whether you are familiar with the Canadian constitutional situation
Nope, and I can’t say it interests me either. I have to be selective on what I concentrate on and an island full of goats in the Mediterranean cannot compare to Canada in interest right now. BTW, do you have goats in Canada? Goats always make a place seem much nicer. Just ask Ghadaffi. Canada would seem so much nicer with a few goats scattered here and there. Forget your constitutional crisis and get some goats. Everything will be better.
Seriously now, if anyone wants to have a profound discussion on whether Gibraltar, Ceuta or Canada are entitled to self determination (the answer is “no”) we can start a thread in GD.
Asshole.
Anyway, I admit I used a quotation from your post maladroitly. I wasn’t bringing Quebec up to combat your specific point about Oregon, but your general point about the right of peoples to self-determination.
Nevertheless, if you don’t know anything about the constitutional history of Canada, what posessed you to expound about what Quebec, in particular, can or can’t do?
Furthermore, it seems to me that states are prevented from leaving the US not by some generally agreed-upon principle about the territorial integrity of nation-states, but because they are specifically prevented from doing so by an American law, which would make the US situation not quite so relevant to the world at large.
And before this argument starts:
me: Why did you talk about Quebec when you admit that you don’t know anything about the situation?
sailor: You brought up Quebec, not me.
me: I was referring to the part where you expressed your opinion that “a unilateral declaration of independence with the opposition of the rest of Canada would not be internationally recognised except by Lybia or some such country.”
It seems to me someone has a seriously impaired sense of humor today. Get some goats. You’ll feel much better.
Nah. Sheep are woolier. Besides, I want to remain true to my Scottish heritage.
And before I drive myself crazy, it’s Libya.
I don’t know if Gandhi ever visited, though.
Forgive the interruption but sailor, I would buy you a drink every day for, well, at least the rest of the month for that post. Thank you.
Now, carry on.
ruadh, thanks, I’m glad someone found the humor in there. I came into this thread with a serious post and everyone started booing and saying “hey, we’re trying to have some fun here, what do you think this is? The forum for boring stuff is GD! Get outta here!” so I thought I would adjust the tone to the venue but I must have missed. I guess you should only post here when you are really pissed off.
On a related note: I just saw a piece on TV where they interviewed an old Moroccan woman who lives in a shack right across from the island. She herds goats and takes them to the island to graze when there is not enough pasture on the mainland. She is a really nice and likable old grandmother with a wide brimmed straw hat and she speaks impecable Spanish. The TV crew filmed her in front of the small enclosure where she keeps the goats and you could see the island in the background. She said she rows two or three goats at a time in her little rowboat out to the island and leaves a bunch of them there for several days. She said she cooked food and sold it to the Moroccan soldiers the few days they were there but the Spanish soldiers have told her they do not need her to cook for them. She’s all motherly about all these young kids on “her” island. Really sweet old woman.
The also interviwed an old, retired, Spanish officer who had been deployed there decades ago. It seems the “soldiers” under his command were just Moroccans he hired for very little. They lived on the island just camping and enjoying a bucolic life without much to do.
It is interesting to know General Franco always had a liking for Moroccan troops and there were many in the Spanish foreign legion and to the end of his life his personal guards were a company of Moorish guards all dressed in their native garb which made the whole thing quite exotic and spectacular and made him look like a sultan.
I have thought about how the experiences of youth mark us much more than those later in life and we remember them with certain affection. I have known a few Americans who love Mexico and things Mexican just because when they were younger they took a trip there. Franco’s years as a young officer were spent in northern Africa and it seems he acquired an affection for things Moroccan and made close friendships which lasted a lifetime.
A certain Moroccan officer in the Spanish army made it all the way up to the top and became Captain General of the military region of NorthEastern Spain. It was the custom that, every year, on the festivity of St James, the Captain General would go to the Cathedral and make an offering to St James in the name of all Spain. It was kind of weird for a few years that the man doing this was a muslim but Franco had his preferences and God wasn’t going to get in his way.
As I say, Franco was very fond of Morocco and Spain always aligned itself internationally with Morocco and with the Arab countries (which I thought was quite a mistake). It is a shame bilateral relations have soured like this over nothing but I get the impression there are greater forces at work here. Spain is being pulled in the direction of Europe in its interests and policies and Morocco, like most Muslim countries, is becoming more polarised and anti-western.
Maybe at the higher levels things have become tense but the nice woman is still taking her goats to the island and speaks like nothing much has changed at her level. Things are not so bad.