Is the current “punishment vote” against the Spanish leadership evidence that the U.S. really must act unilaterally, not being able to rely on other countries for assistance?
It strikes me as very odd that the response to having your civilians bombed is, “Oooooh, gee, if only we had kept quiet and not said anything, Mr. Osama might have left us alone! Now that our civilians have been murdered, let’s blame the leadership that lent support to those fighting the terrorist, rather than blaming the terrorists.”
I’m sure there are other reactions to this news; “But we weren’t fighting terrorists, we were attacking the peaceful country of Iraq, so we deserved to have our civilians murdered.”
The Spanish people, en masse, were strongly opposed to US policy regarding Iraq, and just as strongly opposed to being in a position of supporting that policy. Inconvenient to your premise, this opposition precedes the bombing by about a year or so.
Now, if they had been generally supportive of US policy before this incident, and cravenly caved at the first sign of trouble, you might have a case. They weren’t, and you don’t.
As well, poll indicators from Spain, admittedly preliminary, suggest that a great many Spanish voters are very upset that thier government attempt to blame the incident on the Basque seperatists in a lame effort to shift blame from themselves.
As well, poll indicators from Spain, admittedly preliminary, suggest that a great many Spanish voters are very upset that thier government attempt to blame the incident on the Basque seperatists in a lame effort to shift blame from themselves.
Ok wait, I don’t have a dog in this fight, but if I’m to read this correctly, elucidator, you’re saying the Spanish Gov’t actually CAUSED the bombing, rather than the terrorist pricks who ACUTALLY blew up the trains?
elucidator has a point if you look at it in terms of where the Spanish people are laying the blame. To the extent that they think their country’s support of the war is the proximate cause of the attack, they do lay the blame on the Government, and the Government has tried to shift that blame.
[QUOTE=buttonjockey308Ok wait, I don’t have a dog in this fight, but if I’m to read this correctly, elucidator, you’re saying the Spanish Gov’t actually CAUSED the bombing, rather than the terrorist pricks who ACUTALLY blew up the trains?
Talk about drivel.[/QUOTE]
Um, guys, elucidator did not say anything of the sort. The argument was that if Al Queda is, in fact, behind the attack, then they almost certainly chose to target Spain because Spain participated in the attack on Iraq. If you’re a member of the Popular Party, this looks really bad, so what do you do? Attempt to pin the blame on the Basque Separatists instead, and hope that no one figures out the truth until after the election. Incidentally, it seems that the Spanish voters have decided that this is what actually happened.
I don’t understand why what 'luci wrote is so hard to grasp. All he’s saying is that, if it was AQ that did the deed, then the government that got Spain squarely into AQ’s sights, despite the fact that the majority of the population was opposed to supporting the US in its ‘war on terror’, the ‘blame’ would naturally fall on the Spanish government. How you guys are translating that into “the government blew up the trains” is totally beyond me.
Perhaps ruadh, but there’s a serious void between the proximate cause and the actual cause. Blaming the Spanish Gov’t for the bombings is akin to blaming holocaust victims for being Jewish, or American slaves for being Black it doesn’t hold water. If you don’t like the policies of a Government, you work lawfully to change them, rather than kill OTHER victims of the policy you abhor. The proximate cause, honestly, is irrelevant to the reality that hundreds of innocent people were killed because of one groups misguided (imo) ideology.
Ahem… SlyFrog, maybe it is because you are new around here, but the evidence discussed before shows that Iraq was not part of the attacks to the continental US, The reality that Osama’s minions are present NOW in Iraq looks to me now like an unnecessary second front opened when we still needed to take care of the organizers of 9/11
For the Spaniards now, there is the realization that they were suckered into a war with Al-qeida (the tears Osama is having for Iraq are crocodile tears, we actually followed the wishes of Osama in getting rid of Saddam, now the effort is to turn Iraq into a fundamentalist stronghold, easier now for them) after getting involved in a war that was not related to the war on terror. This doesn’t eliminate the reality for Spain it is now at war. They, however, will now hunt the killers with new leadership that will take evidence and not propaganda as the means to deal with the war on terror.
Because this is what it has to be clear: we may have done good in Iraq, but the reasons to go there were really unrelated to the war on terror, this is a case were the people may agree something good was done by capturing a criminal, but on the way to capture him, the cop abused the trust of the people. The people of Spain (if polls remain as projected) have decided to get rid of the crooked cop, we will have to do the same in America.
It proves that the US and specifically Bush got the so called War on Terror wrong and isolated himself. That the so called coalition of the willing is nothing but a few government leaders supporting Bush… not their nations.
Europeans aren't pussies... its american foreign policy made by assholes that went wrong. Take down Bush and then try again. The world would follow if the US would lead instead of bullying.
I’m just wondering why something the Spanish are doing, even if we accept the dubious premise that it’s a cowardly act, tars an entire continent with the label of “pussies”? That’s a hell of a big brush to wield.
You’re still missing the point. The issue to the Spanish voters is why they were targetted specifically. If those bombs had gone off in another country the PP would probably be popping the champagne bottles right about now.
Why would they have to have ‘interests’ in Iraq. Al Quaida has released plenty of statements condemning the action in Iraq. Aznar, against the wishes of the vast majority of his people, was highly visible in support of the action, thus increasing the likelihood of Spain being a target for future terrorist attacks, which have now occured.
Ruadh, I get the point, but the Spanish voters are wrong to blame the government for the actions of terrorists. Period. Why Spain was targeted by these criminal bastards, is because of her alliance with the US, certianly this is the case, however, terrorism is designed to seperate the people from the leadership, and cause the internal blaming that’s going on now.
Did the policy cause the bombing? Probably. Are the dead collateral damage? Yep. Should the world stand pat while megalomaniacs and lunatics and the general force of screwballs that crawls the shadows hold the world hostage?
Hell no.
The loss is a tragic one, but the end result is that the war against these malcontents will continue, irrespective of the loss. Right or Wrong.