Spanish Minister offers a hearty Fuck You to Cuban political prisoners.

[QUOTE=RedFury]
Rather exceptional the mutual concesions, are they not not?
[/QUOTE]
Easily could be.

Possibilities include:

Franco fast-talked some Spanish prelates into extending to him honors that would not otherwise be proferred to a layperson.

Some over-enthusiastic Spanish prelates decided that Franco’s “defense” of the church entitled him to special considerations without even any prompting by Franco.

Some over-enthusiastic (or pressured) Spanish prelates took Franco’s “defense” of the church to Rome where Pius XII or someone in the Vatican office of protocol agreed to extend some honors not normally extended to laypersons.

I have heard various rumors about Franco and the church for years without paying a lot of specific attention to the details. You have not posted anything that I find improbable and I only wandered into the thread to discuss the pallium at your request. I’m glad that Franco is gone and I hope that the actions of Juan Carlos upon his coronation have kept Franco spinning madly in his grave for the last 31+ years.

[QUOTE=tomndebb]
Easily could be.

Possibilities include:

Franco fast-talked some Spanish prelates into extending to him honors that would not otherwise be proferred to a layperson.

Some over-enthusiastic Spanish prelates decided that Franco’s “defense” of the church entitled him to special considerations without even any prompting by Franco.

Some over-enthusiastic (or pressured) Spanish prelates took Franco’s “defense” of the church to Rome where Pius XII or someone in the Vatican office of protocol agreed to extend some honors not normally extended to laypersons.

I have heard various rumors about Franco and the church for years without paying a lot of specific attention to the details. You have not posted anything that I find improbable and I only wandered into the thread to discuss the pallium at your request. I’m glad that Franco is gone and I hope that the actions of Juan Carlos upon his coronation have kept Franco spinning madly in his grave for the last 31+ years.
[/QUOTE]

Tom, quick response here for race-coverage’s started. I have only thanks to give for getting you involved in this thread. And I do. Thank you.

Other than that, I hasten to add that your comments have also placed some well-founded doubts on what I thought was a certainty about the RCC and their granting the much discussed “pallium” bit.

In closing, I can only say that heartily agree with your last paragraph. Once again, I reitarete my gratitude for responding to my message. Not bashing here, simply trying to clear-up what version of history is correct.


Now then, say it with me: “Vamos Alonso!” :slight_smile:

[QUOTE=BrainGlutton]
The interesting thing is that a democratized Cuba has the potential to become considerably more dem-sosh than anything you’ll find in Europe. From the Encarta:

This system would be radically more grass-roots democratic than anything we’ve got in the U.S., if the Communist Party were not in absolute control of all key decisionmaking at every step at every level.

Now imaging taking the Communist Party out of the equation. And imagine the people don’t immediately vote to privatize the whole economy – but, instead, let it remain under control of genuinely democratized state bodies and mass organizations.

That’s what the Revolution was ideally supposed to be about in the first place.

I just hope the system – at least, those salvageable elements described above — outlives Castro and the CCP.
[/QUOTE]

BTW, lalenin, what are your thoughts on the above? (Whatever the origins of your username, I’m sure it was not chosen to express Communist sympathies. :wink: )

[QUOTE=BrainGlutton]
BTW, lalenin, what are your thoughts on the above? (Whatever the origins of your username, I’m sure it was not chosen to express Communist sympathies. :wink: )
[/QUOTE]

I have given up on trying to fix the Cuban economy, if private enterprise is opened up it will almost certainly supplant any government run venture, just because the government sucks at it so badly. We saw that with the paladares, small restaurants, despite the difficulties getting supplies they became more popular than any government run one, consequently the government has made it so difficult to have one with taxes, inspections, fees, fines, and so on, that they have almost disappeared.

As for my name, I attended “Vladimir I. Lenin” school in Cuba, usually called “la lenin”. It is an elite school, Fidel’s sons attended at the same time I did, although they had private classes and were always surrounded by bodyguards, and they certainly did not work 4 hours in the fields every day like I did. Anyway, attending “la lenin”, is sort of a badge of pride, it was more academically challenging than university.

[QUOTE=RedFury]
By that I mean, I grew up under Franco, and there probably wasn’t a safer – or more prudish – country in the western world to live in. Crime was virtually unheard of…just as rare as seeing a naked boob anywhere; getting a hold of a Playboy, through some kids we knew that lived in Torrejon de Ardoz (The Spanish/American Air base) was practically a heroic feat. Censorship of movies was so ridiculous that sometimes (Hollywood stuff) flicks made no sense at all, i.e. The Graduate.

Having said that, as a kid, I didn’t give a hoot about politics – for me it was all about sports and just plain having fun. So, in that sense, it was a great country to grow-up in. Parents had nary a worry about drugs, porn, crime, etc. BUT, and there’s always a but, you best not DARE say anything anti-government, because odds were at least 50/50 that if you were overheard, someone would turn you in. And who the hell knew if you were ever going to get out. As per usual, the biggest problem areas were the large universities, who had a steady share of riots/protests. Lots of broken heads and kids off to jail.

Personal anecdote: my only uncle from my Mom’s side, all of seventeen when the war broke-out, was a loyal member of the Youth Falangists, thus he was obviously recruited to fight for the Nacionalist as soon as hostilities began. Smart kid that he was, he had taught himself morse-code as a hobby, thus he was sent to a communications outpost under a couple of other officers. Turns out one night, he’s alone in the outpost and a message comes in. Being a kid and quite curious, he proceeded to interpret the message prior to calling his superiors. In walks one of them, sees him doing this and he is immediately jailed, charged as an enemy-spy and sentenced to death by firing squad. Only thing that kept him alive was the fact that my Grandmother, who widowed very young, had remarried a politician of some clout on the right. Long story short. spent the better part of his youth in jail – 14 years – upon release, migrated to Canada where he earned a PHD in history and went-on to become a uni professor. But of course, Spain was always in his heart..and armed with his now Canadian passport, he made regular trips to Spain, normally to small towns in Asturias were he was originally from. Once there, he’d go to the local tavern, get loaded on apple-cider, and raise all sorts of hell against the regime. Result: he was deported at least five times before being permanently black-listed from entering Spain. Oh, and I’ll never forget the arguments from hell him and my Dad used to engage in…had to be broken apart by others (myself included) more than once. Both dead long ago. But the memories remain vivid.

And they are not in black and white.

Hope that made some sense.
[/QUOTE]

You have just described life in Cuba, good post.

[QUOTE=RedFury]
(Perdona, pero no se permite hablar en otro idioma que no sea ingles aqui. No es mi intencion ser confuso en forma alguna. Al contrario soy de la vieja escuela de “al pan, pan, y al vino, vino” :wink:
[/QUOTE]

[hijack]
It always kind of amazes me that I can read Spanish well enough to understand both of those sentences in their entirety with just two years of high school Spanish. I really should start telling prospective employers that I’m bilingual. :wink:
[/hijack]

[QUOTE=lalenin]
You have just described life in Cuba, good post.
[/QUOTE]

Gracias, joven. Aunque no me extraña sobremanera, recuerda el viejo dicho de que “los extremos se tocan.”

Translation: Thank you, young man/woman. Although I am not overly surprised, remember the old saying that “extremes touch.”


Then I say, go for it – can’t hurt, can it? While my sentences weren’t particularly difficult to translate, they certainly weren’t at Spanish 101 reading comprehension. Even threw in an old Spanish proverb in there – seems we have one for every situation.