Spanking, when done correctly, is good for kids

Great Debates
21

I understand “spanking” to mean something that causes pain but with zero chance of causing physical damage or lasting harm: no bruises, no broken bones or torn skin, no marks or redness that last more than a couple of minutes.

Whether it’s effective or a good idea is debatable (and may well depend on the kid), but equating it with violence is a mistake. All this talk about “it teaches kids that violence is acceptable” or “that violence is a way to solve problems”—well, if by “violence” you limit yourself to things that won’t cause any damage or lasting harm, I’m not sure such “violence” is really all that bad.

22

Let me ask a potentially silly question. Do the kids WANT a hug after you’ve spanked them? Do you offer a hug, or demand one? Because (and I’m not trying to slam your technique, if nothing else, at least it’s well thought out), I could see some kids internally coding that as “I have to give physical affection even if I don’t want to” or, even worse, “physical pain is OK for someone to do to me, as long as s/he tells me afterwards that she loves me”…that is, it would possibly set someone up to accept an abusive relationship down the road.

That being said, I think spankings, like pretty much everything in parenting, are not a black-and-white issue. For some kids, at some times, done in some ways, it may be appropriate. For others, it’s not.

I am not a pacifist. I believe that sometimes, force is necessary, be it on a military scale or a personal scale. I teach my kids a very carefully designed set of circumstances under which it’s permissible to hit someone else who is antagonizing you (and I teach them how to punch effectively). I, in theory, will always follow the same steps before hitting my kid. In practice, I’ve never gotten to the point where I *had *to hit - the warnings and consequences which are required before the hitting step have always done the job.

WhyKid did get a “Danger Swat” on the butt once for running into traffic as a toddler, and I make no apologies for that, nor do I consider it “spanking”.

He is a very well-mannered kid in public, and we’re often (like several times a week when he was younger) complimented on his social skills and manners. It is entirely possible, with at least some kids, to have a well-socialized kid without spanking. The Look works just as well for me, even though I’ve never hit him. (Frankly, I’m not sure what I’d actually DO if The Look didn’t work! He’s never tested me on it!) He’s 13 now.

But I will never say never in parenting, because that’s just taunting the Parenting Gods and ensuring that you will have no gorram choice but to do the thing you said you’d never do. I have a toddler, and while I have no plans to spank her, who knows what techniques will work best with her? I doubt it will be spanking (right now The Look works with her as well, which is promising), but if it needs to be, it needs to be.

23

Firstly there’s the mental effect. Why is my parent hurting me?
I assure you that repeated smacking can cause resentment.

Next what if a man slaps his wife?
Zero chance of causing physical damge or lasting harm - yet we call it domestic violence.

Are you allowing arm twisting or choking? Is that not violence?

24

I say this without sarcasm: You’ve done a good job in pointing out my sloppy writing. Without getting into a blow by blow reply to your blow by blow, let me clarify:

My commenting on the “smoking argument” was merely to caution against arguing from allegory. The article criticizes the idea that spanking is okay because so many people who are spanked turn out fine by offering the “go ahead and smoke” line. The smoking comparison is just as irrelevant as “never start a business because half of them fail in the first year.”

I refer to the spanked CEOs only as a second instance of spanking discussions on the radio. The two mentions of spanking were twice in the same week on two different radio stations. It made me wonder if the study the first radio show referred to was making a splash. I took the CEO article as more whimsical than informative.

My point of the boxers is only to counter the bald assertion that hitting diminishes people. There’s no doubt it can, but it doesn’t follow that it must. It depends on the context, and in the parent-child relationship can be managed without psychological harm of any kind. I admit the example is at least as bad as the “go ahead and smoke” argument I derided earlier. I do maintain that saying “hitting is always wrong under all circumstances and always results in psychologically harming the one being hit” is an incorrect absolute - a claim that carries the burden of proof.

25

Not silly at all! I never got the vibe the hug was unwelcome - rather to the contrary by all indications.

Ulp! I certainly hope you’re wrong about coding for accepting an abusive relationship! If that becomes the case I will repent with great shame. On the whole, though, raising kids with high self-esteem, a strong moral conscience, fair tolerance of others, and a firm backbone is my highest priority. If I did made a bad choice by spanking, I hope on balance my set of good choices will counteract that.

26

Poor and minorities spank more. Spare the rod spoil the child thing. Hows it working? Parents often hit in anger and frustration. That is dangerous and not a teaching too. Living in fear of your parents cannot be healthy.

27

Oh, but it can be. But let’s narrow down “fear of parents” a little bit, because IMHO, that’s extremely fuzzy terminology:

  • Fear of getting caught doing something wrong.
  • Fear of dissapointing parents.
  • Fear of consequences.

IMHO, all the above are quite healthy if the fear is not extreme. When I say “extreme”, I mean “extreme” – it’s obviously way beyond the pale to have your kids fearing cigarette burns, or being locked in a closet overnight.

28

WhyNot nailed it with this quote.

What always irritates me about these kinds of arguments is the people who come in and say Spanking is ALWAYS good or Spanking is NEVER good. Like others, I was spanked, and I was essentially a good kid, so I don’t remember what the spanking was for, just that it happened. I remember the scoldings much clearer. And I adored my aunt and so every time she was disappointed in me I rememembr that best of all. I do feel some kids need spankings, they don’t get it any other way.

Not every kid is cut from the same mold. Ask anyone who has 3-4 kids…they’ll tell you some things were the same, and some things vary. you hear it all the time, “But with this kid I just don’t know what to do!”

29

There are people who would disagree with that:

  • fundamentalists who believe in (their interpretation of) the literal words in Scripture;
  • cultural conservatives who believe that obedience and control are not just a sometime necessity, but the actual moral foundation of family and society;
  • and not incidentally, abusers/abused who want a screen of sanctity and “nobody’s business” drawn back down around the whole issue.
30

To me spanking is unthinkable. I have two kids at age three and a half and one and a half, and yet another on the way. I would rather shoot myself in the foot, before I hit a child. If I can’t raise my children without hitting them, I will seek professional aid, honest to God. Let me point out that my children are very polite and likable amongst the adults in kindergarten and so forth (though can be real tough to handle at home).

I’m sure you’re a good person, and I’m not saying that I’m morally above you, but I sincerely believe from the bottom of my heart, that the rational, patriarchal form of spanking you describe, followed by the priestlike hug, is giving very strange messages: “I hit you because I love you.” “I love you because I can hit you.” “Thank you for letting me hit you, for that I love you.” These opposite feelings of guilt, hurt, pleasure, is one strange experience to plant in the kids.

I really believe that a parent losing it and giving the kid a slap when he/she really goes to far, is far less damaging to the child (given that it’s a one time mistake, and the parent apologizes some time after). (And just for the record, I’ve never done that.) Because the cold blooded punishment followed by the the loving hug you describe really gives me the creeps.

And if the result of spanking the children leads to obeying children, fearing “the stare”, isn’t really something to aim for, in my book. It’s pretty easy to make a child fear an adult, and if the adult can’t handle the situation without using violence, he or she can’t handle the situation, and seek counselling. Because if you’re bigger than the other, you can always end the conflict with violence, and then everything’s fine again. Of course, it isn’t really. The other just can’t do anything anymore. “The rest is silence.”

31

I have to agree from personal experience. My father’s favored brand of belittling hurt a lot more than any of the spankings with a belt I received as a little kid. I’m really not even sure I minded them as compared to other possible disciplinary actions.

If I got a note sent home from school or pushed my sister off a swing my dad would give me a pretty good whipping with his belt (or my mom, who usually used a switch gathered by myself.) It stung, then it was over, and I went about my merry way. Honestly it was so ritualized, I mess up → get spanked → move on. I think my parents did it because in that particular area of the United States, everyone spanked their kids when they acted up, it would be considered lax parenting to not do so. And I think it was such a routine for them they never really thought about it, in fact I think it made them less effective as parents because they felt the spanking taught me my lesson, and that was that. In reality, over time you grow pretty immune to the routine whippings on the bottom. I think, just speaking from personal experience I would have much preferred to take a quick and relatively painless spanking that won’t affect me at all 2 minues later versus being told I couldn’t go out with my friends for the weekend or that I had to stay in my room for the rest of the evening.

I personally think that different forms of discipline work best for different parents and children. I don’t think spanking is inherently bad or good, I don’t think it is inherently effective or ineffective. I think it is a tool that can work to discipline certain childs, when done in a certain way, at certain times. But it certainly isn’t for everyone.

I think different children need different types of discipline in general. I think some kids, like me, for example, needed a stronger authority figure than I had. While I think some kids, like my sister, needed a different approach, probably more focused on a setting appropriate, agreed upon boundaries.

32

You’re not the first person who’s said this. I guess that’s pretty normal, but I find it really odd.

Do you mean that now you don’t remember why you were spanked then, or at the time you had no idea why you were being punished?

I think it was always very clear to me why I was being spanked. To this day, I can remember three instances. In one, I called my mother a liar. Once, I wrote the word “fart.” And once I gave my brother the finger.

Oh yeah, once my sister and I drew pictures of people peeing.

33

Keep in mind that I’m not arguing that physical punishment (i.e. spanking) is always a good thing. Rather, I’m arguing against the notion that it’s always a bad thing, or that it necessarily equals child abuse, or that people who do it should be demonized.

It was because we caught you playing on the roof again. We’ve tried telling you to stay off the roof, but you wouldn’t listen. Maybe now you’ll remember. Better that than falling off the roof and breaking your neck.

So can pretty much any form of punishment, discipline, restriction, etc. Such resentment may or may not be justified, depending.

If there truly is neither the possibility nor the threat of harm—if it’s a case of insult rather than injury—then no, I wouldn’t put it in the same category as domestic violence. IMO such a slap should not be treated as a criminal act—which is not to say some other consequence, like the wife leaving the husband or insisting he get counseling, might not be appropriate. And the same goes if it’s the wife who slaps the husband. The only justification for a double standard here is that the man is typically larger and stronger than the woman, but this is irrelevent in the case of non-injurious, non-threatening slaps.

If there’s any possibility of injury? Absolutely not. If there’s a way of doing it without any possibility of injury? I’m still not so sure it’s a good idea, but I’m not ready to categorically rule it out in all cases.

34

Also, I think I probably reject the idea that spanking, all things being equal, creates negative characteristics like antisocial behavior in people. If that were the case we’d see clearly higher statistics for antisocial behavior in 1950 versus 2000, and a clear downward trend from 1950 to the year 2000.

When I grew up in rural Virginia, everyone I knew was spanked by their parents. Some kids were beat by their parents. There was a big difference. The kids who were given beatings by their parents represented a very small minority, and every kid I knew who had a parent that left them with bruises went on to be very problematic and antisocial as a teenager and adult.

I think when the spankings aren’t particularly harmful, and become routine, they really lose any ability to cause any sort of long term negative characteristics. I mean, there was a time when spanking was the status quo, and I’m not aware that antisocial behavior has become less common as time goes on in the years from 1950-2000, but maybe I’m wrong. I don’t have any statistics on it nor could I find any after some brief Googling.

Spankings at school actually became a badge of honor amongst most of the boys I knew. You were a troublemaker if you had to be spanked by the principal, and you could act tough afterwards and say it didn’t even sting.

I think spankings done in anger, even if they aren’t physically violent, can cause problems because they cause an association between anger and violence in the child. I think routinized spankings will largely become adjusted to and dulled to by children, at least that’s what happened with me.

Pain is definitely a motivator towards enforcing certain behaviors in most mammals, your learn from pain what to do and what not to do, but I don’t really know if that applies to humans very well or not, we aren’t like most mammals.

35

See, this is the thing: spanking is not really meant for childhood-long punishment. Once the future means something to a child, then it’s more appropriate to ground and to withhold rewards. Spanking a 12-year-old is kind of pointless, as they’ll do what you did – sublimate the experience to their desire to do whatever it was that got them in trouble.

Spanking, as I understand it, is meant to startle a toddler-aged child. It’s not meant to instill … mmm … a pain-aversion response. It’s more a physical expression of severe displeasure. I see a lot of people conflating spanking with straight-up pain infliction … and I see a clear distinction there.

36

I (and my wife ) raised two daughters. There comes a time in the early years where a child feels empowered to resist instruction and no other avenue is available when you see the need for an immediate change of attitude.
I employed spanking twice in each of their lives. In both cases, I made sure it hurt. In each and every case, if memory serves correctly, I succeeded.

I made sure that these incidents were rare for maximum effect, and that they occured privately without humiliation or anger on my part. There does come a time howvever with a child’s age where the humiliation of spanking cannot be avoided. Humiliation, way more than physical pain is to be avoided at all costs in my opinion.

Its kind of odd for me, but if I had sons, I might have carried the spanking or the belt a little further on in their lives. Perhaps its because in my time, enduring corporal punishment, the strap, from lets say a dispassionate principal actually resulted in pride amongst my peers until I was 12 at least. I only felt humiliation from my father’s emotional spanking however.

37

You’re awfully matter-of-fact about that last paragraph - especially, that last sentence.

38

I once found myself in a parental position over a toddler (engaged to her mother, in case you’re curious). I was none too enthusiastic about spanking, but there were some possible actions that seemed to demand it- -things that would most probably result in physical harm, if I recall correctly.

I required that the crime, and punishment, be stated clearly and in advance, and preferably there would be a warning briefly in advance that, if she didn’t stop it right now, I’d be forced to spank her; according to the rules I had no choice. (Her mother would on occasion do the whole spontaneous “if you don’t stop that thing you’re doing you’re going to get a spanking” thing, but I strongly discouraged that; that’s not how an organized punitive system works.)

I think she made me spank her twice, and I’m certain that both those times she was testing me to see if I would. (Cheeky kid.) Boy howdy did she squall at the time, but after she got done testing me, if she broke a rule, she was entirely unsurprised by the punishment and generally went to her room or whatever with a sour expression and no argument whatsoever.

There were a couple of times when she did something radically stupid that was clearly worthy of a spanking. (Can we say, running out into the street?) At those points we told her that that was a bad thing to do, and if she did it again in the future, it was now a rule that a spanking would have to happen. No spanking for the initial infraction, of course; there hadn’t been a rule about it then.

(In case you’re curious, the spankings were done with the aim to be sharply painful but not damaging, over pants and diaper. From the sound of her at the time you’d think I was running her over with a truck, though. We did the whole “I’m sorry I had to do that, we still love you” thing afterwards, too. I don’t think she was confused by the “mixed messages”.)

She was quite the good little kid, all things considered. Remarkably good when at restraunts. I’m not at all certain that she just wasn’t that way by nature, though. I make no claims as a parent. Still, the spankings didn’t seem to scar her for life or anything.

39

Spanking as it’s being discussed here – that is, to teach “consequences” or to “communicate” (and not for some sadistic pleasure on the part of the spanker) – is on the whole almost certainly bad for kids. Without doubt it is hostile to them.

When a parent spanks their child, they’re either simply coercing them to do what they want, or they’re acting out some hostility to the child that they usually are in denial about. (It’s usually some combination of the two.) All this talk of “communicating” and “teaching consequences” is just a way to avoid what’s really going on. There’s only one message that is communicated when a parent spanks their child: “Do what we want you to do, or else.”

Nor does spanking teach about real “consequences” in any useful way. If you, as a parent, contrive some kind of moral reason or logic as to why the child needs to be spanked, then you’re kidding yourself, because the real world teaches consequences a million times better and more honestly if you let it. If throwing a tantrum leads to a strained relationship with their parents (who children are very dependent on and need) and it doesn’t get them the toy or treat in the supermarket that they wanted, then they’ll inevitably learn that it isn’t a good thing to do without being spanked about it.

But many parents are more than a bit neurotic and like to think it’s because they haven’t manipulated or spanked the kid enough that the child is throwing tantrums or doing something else they don’t like. They’re in denial about how they actually are interacting with their children.

So, to use the same example, tantrums in stores are almost always inevitable given the parent’s neurotic interactions with their kids. The simplest way this happens is that parents actually reward tantrums by giving in after a certain period, and the children are just doing what their experience has shown them to work (usually these kids find little success through asking politely, and the less pleasant route is the only way that works well). Other parents will communicate that the child is bad for asking (which starts the fight), or the parents have always emphasized that they buy things for the child to show love and approval and refuse them to show disapproval (so refusing the kid something from the supermarket is the same as telling the kid, “you’re a bad kid”, which starts a fight), or they are scapegoating the child in some way, etc.

In situations like these, spanking just leads to a denial of what’s actually happening. So, although the tantrum is shown to be a good strategy initially (as the parents have been rewarding it but for whatever reason don’t admit it to themselves), the spanker wants to communicate “You’re bad for screaming.” The truth of the matter is the child never had any real power in the situation and the parents could have just never gone along with it (or once started, stopped rewarding it and waited for the child to learn that it didn’t work anymore).

The only thing spanking teaches a kid about consequences is that the consequence of not submitting to their parents’ will is their parents will hit them. The knock on effect is that they’ll likely grow into adults who take a submissive approach to authority, say on the job or social relationships, even when it’s not actually in their own interest to do so. And they’ll take an authoritarian attitude to people beneath them, such as their children.

I mean, is a “healthy fear” a good thing? For who is it healthy? For the parent who wants to have near-absolute control over the child without having to hit them in public, maybe? I can’t see what the child gains from it.

What use is it for anyone to have it ingrained in childhood to have “respect for authority”? There are certainly times in life, in this society, when it makes sense to submit to authority for various reasons. But those are decisions the child can easily make when they are grown, they don’t need their parents spanking them and trying to instill a fear of authority in them. If your respect for authority comes from fear of spankings and not from reasonable choices made your own reasons, it’s hard to tell as an adult when it really would be better for you to not go along with authority.

I mean, there’s inevitably conflicts between children and parents. Most of them can be resolved at least fairly amicably and with mutual respect if the parent has an awareness and handle on what they’re doing, and has handled their various issues. But most people are at least somewhat neurotic and have issues they want to project on their kids and take out on them. Kids react badly to this. If you’re a parent, you can just “win” the conflict this causes by coercing the children whenever it gets down to it. But it’s certainly not good for the kid. And I really think it is better to not to be in denial about what you’re doing to your kids and why.

40

And coercing your kid is bad how? You prefer “ignoring”, or “not parenting”?

And what if the spanking’s aren’t spontaneous, but instead stated and known as consequences well in advance of the crime? “If you ever play with the oven, you’re going to get a spanking. I don’t want to do it, but if you break the rules, you suffer the consequences.”

The logic is this: I made a rule with a clear and unvarying consequence, and if you break the rule, the consequence happens. This is precisely as contrived as your average governmental legal system. I can see how you don’t think such a thing relates to the real world.

And oh yeah, the real world is a great teacher -particularly if the consequence is fatal.

And, finally, can you defend the claim that small children learn rationally from “strained relationship[s] with their parents”? As opposed to learning that “you’re a bad kid” thing that you seem not to like?

Now, I’m not defending the notion of randomly thrashing your kid without warning just because they’re irritating, or because you suddenly decided that you don’t like what they’re doing. But you don’t seem to be even briefly allowing for spanking as the WMD of an organized system or rules and punishments for a toddler-age child, which seems to me to be at least a bit of an oversight.