spanking

95% of the JuvenileDelinquents probably were, but then we come into the so called normal kids/adults who were not.

In an earlier post, I did say that I had considered all other influences and weeded them out, which indicated that I was examining the apparent primary source of changed behavior. I do accept the notion/fact that not all no spank kids will turn out to be selfish monsters, just like some really heavily ‘beaten’ kids turned out just fine (no thanks to the beatings).

However, the no physical contact movement has gotten so far out of hand that not only has it affected the rights of parents who choose to spank their kids, but warped the authority of the schools – a primary authority figure in a child’s life aside from home. It also has diminished the authority of the police and of any other adult.

When it comes to the point that your desires legally affect a parents right to discipline his/her kids within an accepted level and shows kids that even cops as well as the legal system have to treat them gently, then I take offense.

If I catch a 14 year old guy - who is probably bigger than me - breaking into my car by smashing the window and I, in anger, beat the crap out of him before calling the cops, then I not only can be arrested for child abuse or assault, but his parents can sue me for using extreme violence on a minor. However, no one would consider the point that my car is my biggest expense, that my PIP insurance will not cover that $150 window, that I get to clean up and temporarily patch the mess and that, given a chance, the kid would have taken the whole car and I probably would not have gotten it back in running condition.

That’s because of the new, kinder, gentler laws for children.

As I pointed out, shortly after this new no contact rage began, parents started suing the schools and teachers for the lamest reasons involving their kids – a basketball player refused to take a piss test for drugs, which was mandatory for the team – his folks sued over forced invasion of privacy. A kid refused to open his locker for a gun search – the locker, belonging to the school, was opened and no gun found but he and his folks sued over invasion of privacy and trespassing. It seems that since his stuff was in the locker, it was considered his property. Snapping off his lock was considered forceful entry, all done without a search warrant. (On this one, I think the lawyer just enjoyed writing down a whole bunch of stuff to make it look impressive.)

The no hit people indirectly or directly are responsible for laws weakening parental and State authority over kids. There is no reason for a parent to get all bent out of shape if a teacher grabs a kid who is not listening and makes them sit, or gives a 12 year old a little shake to get his attention. He/she is not ripping the kids arm off.

Not all kids require a spanking. I never stated they did but most, being kids, in my opinion, require a swat now and then when talking is not sufficient. Of course, now along with the decrease in authority, the kids have been given a whole new bunch of ‘weapons’ to use against adults who irritate them. Assault child abuse, sexual molestation. Claim either of these against an adult and 99% of the time, that adult is in for a real hard time with the law even when innocent. The consequences for the kid making such a false statement are much milder than the crap the adult has to go through trying to clear him or herself.

Video games. Entertainment makers used to have a conscience when making things for kids. Now, there is a lawsuit involving a city where they have decided to restrict bloody, gory video games to cloistered, age limited sections of video arcades so young kids may not play them. The makers of the games are suing to have the games returned to the normal area over ‘freedom of speech.’ They don’t care that young kids can get used to extreme violence and gore, or the messages such games send, they want the quarters those kids invest.

The video game executives and designers are the young adults who came up during the no hit fad, who have not learned personal responsibility even now that it has been determined that TV and video games influence kids. They want to do what they want to do and that is make money regardless of the consequences.

How do I know they are young adults? Because in my day, there were no PCs until around the 80s and code writing for games has to be done by those who were kids then and grew up with computers. In the 70s, we thought a palm sized calculator with an LCD was one step away from the Jetsons! Besides, I watched the interview some time back with the guys who made the controversial cops and robbers game where the object is to kill as many cops as possible and to run over pedestrians. They were like 25 - 26 years old then and not concerned at all with the ramifications of their game.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Gaudere *
**

You mean you aren’t planning to? Fine, go ahead and destroy my illusions. :frowning:

Amazing. You can weed out all other influences, which even all the psychologists who do peer-reviewed studies have a hard time accounting for, and all that without any apparent formal qualitative or quantitative studies done on your thesis or training in child psychology or proper methodology of psychological studies.

Do you accept that the vast majorities of studies show that children who are not spanked are no worse than spanked children, indeed often shown to be less anti-social and violent? Do you accept that it is only a small minority of children who are not spanked, so apparently you are blaming the rampant decline of civilization on a very few?

Please post one of these kinder, gentler laws, so that we can see how it unfairly limits adults.

So are you saying that you would like legal carte blanche to beat up 14-year-olds who smash your car window. Even if the child is retarded? Even if the child is in fact significantly smaller than you? Even if the child is female? What degree of legal right do you wish to hit another person’s child?

I certainly think it is a good thing that child molestation and abuse is outlawed. Why do you rail against this so?

Please support that creators of video games were not spanked (since you thought that children were rarely spanked today, when about 90% of parents spank, I rather doubt your belief that the creators weren’t) and that they were aware that violent games are harmful. Hell, no one’s really settled that they’re harmful now, although I wouldn’t let a young child play some of the really nasty ones. You know, I find it very amusing that you believe watching a bunch of pixels get blown away is a horrible evil influence on kids, but actually having them be hit by the people they love is a good thing. Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe video games have a rating system to prevent very violent ones from falling into the hands of young children anyhow. I don’t think adults would be very happy if you took away their Doom or Quake.

Gaudere:

You ought to try it. It’s not all that hard to do now is it? First you consider the influence that changed Television restrictions apply, then the influence of violent video games, followed by hyped up news reports, current music videos (we never had those in my time), current music, the Internet and new child laws. However you cannot rule out peer pressure, parental influence and the influence of some so called G rated movies.

Somewhere along in my posts, I believe I stated that the things I’ve been saying are my own opinions and observations. Since the 60s, some of us have sort of been unable to believe every report we read because back then, we were told how the Commies were waiting to savage our lands. Now we find out that back then, the Commies couldn’t have if they wanted to, but the US military thought it best to keep us fired up so we would keep support massive budgets.

No.

Reason? Some majority had to push through the laws that will not allow a parent to spank his kid in public in some places without getting arrested. By spank, I mean a swat or two on the bottom, not a repeated and frantic paddling.

See above. See the previous post concerning a little girl being upset because a teacher took a disruptive kid by the arm and sat him down. On Cops, a Vietnamese man slapped his daughters face because she defied him when he told her she could not go out. She called the cops, he was arrested and as he was placed in the car, the officer clearly told him that he could not hit his kids. (Close-ups of the teenagers face showed hardly any redness, so the slap had not been jaw rattling.) An officer, catching teenaged car thief who has just caused 6 accidents, endangered hundreds of lives and had to be run off of the road may not use undue roughness when handling the little b*****d. Plus, as a juvenile, his punishment will be mild, he probably will be placed in a minimum security facility and then released to his folks and at age 18, his record will be expunged. If you see two kids fighting and you break it up by grabbing them and forcing them apart, you can be arrested for assault on a minor.

Nothing like splitting hairs and exaggerating.

I was talking about one of the many little ‘gangsta dressing’ thugs who boost cars for fun and profit. I have encountered some street girls who would have absolutely no problem in splitting your skull with a tire iron, poking holes in you with a .25, or trying to kick the crap out of you. I suppose I’m supposed to scare the little bugger off and call the cops, who won’t catch him and he’ll go and do it to someone else. If someone is trying to take your property, you have the right to stop them by anything but lethal means, and if they pull a weapon on you, then you have an option to use deadly force.

I do have a reasonably intelligent mind, so what course of action I would take in catching a car thief would depend on the response from him/her. I, however, would not be inclined to let him go and should he resist by force, then force would be applied. If I applied force, because he or she is a minor, I would be more likely to be sued by his parents than if he was an adult.

When I was in my 20s, I had this romantic image of women – the gentler sex - , but as I grew older I discovered that women can be just as violent as men if they choose to be. Teenaged female thugs rely on a man’s tendency to treat them more gently than they would a male. Nothing like the old razor sharp hair file hidden in the hair, the straight razor in the bra, the cheap Jennings .22 clipload under the breast and big screwdriver down the pants. Did I mention the ol’ brick in the purse? If they carry a purse, that is.

My statement:

Magnificent distortion of what I said! Applause for you all round! In previous posts here, I have pointed out that kids can and have cried abuse or molestation when neither has been done to them, just to get an adult in trouble, including their parent. The reason is that, no matter what, Dad or Mom will go to jail for at least the night and dare not swat the kid when they get home. The news media, along with many programs and adult guided child education programs have stressed to kids that no adult may lay a hand on them for any reason.

Great weapon! The kid smacks himself in the face because he is fried at Dad, who won’t let him go to the party that night. Calls the cops, presents his tearful self, says dad hit him, and dad goes to jail. I know of one teen girl who accused a guy of molestation because she was mad at him. There had been no molestation. She was no virgin and was sexually active, which accounted for signs of intercourse in her. After he’d been in jail a few days, she confessed and he was let out.

Her punishment? A slap on the wrist. There wasn’t anything else the law could do. The guy not only had the fun of being in jail, but being treated like a slug by guards who figured he’d diddled the girl, plus he lost roughly $1200 in pay. Plus, many of his neighbors still figured he had done it and the paper printed his innocence on the back page, in small print after they had printed his arrest on the front page is pretty big print.

Could you twist my words more?

Like that has ever stopped kids in the arcades from playing bloody murder games or the game makers from churning them out bloodier than the previous ones.

I was a scoffer when the reports that TV violence could influence kids came out and loudly informed anyone who listened that it was all crap.

I was wrong! I noticed this first in myself. I recalled how when HBO started putting on uncensored bloody killer movies, it was exciting, horrifying and fascinating. To actually see someone’s brains explode out of the back of their head! To see that chain saw rip into that guys guts! To watch while those undead pulled that guy apart and his guts dragged on the floor as they pulled his torso away!

Then the war movies. War in the 1960s seemed ‘romantic’ and heroic. Guys got shot – no blood. People got blown up – no body parts. Emphasis was on mud, rain, harsh conditions, dirty bandages, and so on. One almost wanted to join the Army and kick the butts of the Red Commie Bastiges!!

Then came the graphic war movies – bloody, limbs blown off, mauled people, charred humans, bloated bodies, severed heads. Those changed one’s mind real quick. War was NOT as romantic and heroic as we thought. Then came the shoot 'em up movies in graphic display, cops, war, monster, whatever. Then the gangsta and Bad Black movies where guns solved everything and one could learn how to break into cars, houses, make explosives and make normal bullets much more lethal.

One day, when watching the usual real life rescue shows, hospital shows and cop shows, I realized that the gore did not affect me anymore. I had become used to it. I also discovered that when the cops chased a fleeing crook, my first impulse was for them to shoot the b*****d.

Later I read articles showing an increase of guns and violence among criminals and kids, how kids pulled knives on each other in school, how metal detectors were being installed. I read articles on video games and went to arcades and looked over many a shoulder to view many a game where the object was mass slaughter as bloody as possible. (I had enjoyed, years ago, the Tank game – primitive by today’s standards, where you are inside a tank and your opponents are made up of glowing green lines shaped like tanks and you shoot them. They go boom! and fly neatly apart.)

My jury is still out on the fantasy games, where the hero goes and kills monsters, but the ones where you kill people cause me pause, especially where you are the bad guy.

I compared the violent crime rates – crimes with weapons and crimes with weapons resulting in death – from the 1960s through the 1970s and found them much less than now. The incidents of kids with weapons and shoot at random into a crowd to get into a gang has increased. The incidents of kids using weapons to kill with have increased. Gangs have changed. Gangs of kids did not usually involve innocent bystanders in killing a rival gang member, until it was shown how easy it is to use a semiautomatic weapon and spray the whole street.

Kids did not have access to ways to make chemical bombs, ways to break into cars, instructions on how to dispose of guns used in a murder, or how to get them. Nor were kids ‘used’ to killing, to blood, to the gore that goes with it all, to stabbing and so on. They were used to beating each other up with fists, brass knuckles and clubs. Even then, they usually stopped before killing the person. Kids did not often kill kids.

Now, they are used to what death looks like, from TV and video games.

Yeah, I would say the more bloody games influence kids. If books can, why would you be so foolish to think that interactive, realistic, cleverly designed games will not?

Again, not all, but many can be influenced.

Exactly how did you account for these influences?

Wow, there were peer-reviewed psychological studies showing that the commies were going to savage our land? No wonder you can’t trust any scientific study done since the 60s! I’m gald we can throw them all out; makes it much easier.

Will you please post these laws that outlaw spanking in public? Apparently they’re so widespread that no one in America can hit their kid in public, so it shouldn’t be too hard for you to find several. I rather doubt that no one can spank their kid in public in America. Nor does your claim that a majority had to push through the laws that children can’t be spanked in public necessarily hold up; a lot of people have different public and private morals, and just because a person supports a law forbidding spanking in public does not mean he doesn’t spank himself. I’ve actually cited surveys of parents, the vast majority of whom say they spank; you’re just guessing based on a few laws that you haven’t even cited. If spanking was thought so horrible by most parents, why would about 90% of them admit to doing it?

So you think you should be allowed to use undue roughness? The defintion of “undue” is “beyond what is neccessary”. We don’t allow cops to beat the shit out of adults without cause either.

Well, once a child is an adult, I don’t believe his parents can sue you, so I don’t really see your point. The reasons we have laws protecting minors is because they are generally smaller and weaker than adults. I still would like to hear the text of your proposed new law that would allow you to beat up on 14-year-olds, yet could not be abused by less scrupulous persons.

Um, do you have a cite for when this has ever happened? Not to mention adults can do that with the current assault laws too; I could hit myself and charge another person too. With any law there are going to be people who make false accusations, but I still think we shouldn’t throw the laws out the window.

All you have shown is that all laws can be abused by people who make false accusations, which we already knew. I don’t see how this is evidence for yout point that modern decline is due to not hitting kids enough.

Source?

As to your railing against violent games/TV, you still haven’t established that unspanked children–who in every survey I have ever seen are the minority of the population–are primarily responsible for the violence of modern media.

Gaudere

So, are you beginning to understand the appeal of smacking someone when they just won’t listen to you?

:slight_smile:

GDR

Tris

Even now, Tris…no, never. :smiley: Of course, if I did hit FarTreker, he’d then become obedient, well-behaved, polite, respectful and nonviolent, right? :wink:

Gaudere,

It’s probably time to close this thread. We all know that FartReker can’t cite any such laws as he claims, and his responses are arriving from non sequiturville.

Whattya think?

Rys

Oh my god!

Although it was unintentional, and I like it better, please feel free to correct FarTreker’s name in my previous post if you think it’s innapropriate.

Hee hee hee hee.

Name calling. How droll. How old are you, 15?

I apologize for miscapitalizing your handle. If the mods wish to remove it, that’s fine. If not…c’est la vie.