Spazurek, for the love of god, be a parent!

[NightRabbit]

In relation to this thread.

Long story short, spazurek sends his 2-year-old son to daycare for 8 hours a day, before that it was 11 hours a day. After spending time with his son, the daycare people pull him aside and say, “Hey, there are some behavioral similarities between your child and an autistic diagnosis. We recommend that you have an autism evaluation done.”

Pretty simple, right? Wrong. Apparently, for spazurek, his child is just fine as he is, thank you, no evaluation needed. Why?

We’re living in a culture that calls every quirk a pathology.

Right, because autism is just a quirky personality trait. And our kid, autistic or not, is just the way god made him and that’s OK with us!

…there is a cost involved: a denial that Andrew, as his authentic self, is intrinsically valuable both to himself and to the world. There are certainly times when the benefits to the sick person outweigh this cost, but in my mind the cost is staggering.

I had a moment of clarity while running just now: Whatever disease Andrew has, I adore him just exactly the way he is and any change in him or in how he is treated represents a loss to me.

This bullshit makes me physically ill. If you’re sitting alone in a room, debating the nature of world around you, reading Kant and smoking and staring mournfully out the window, you’d be fine. But this is your KID they’re talking about, and he could have a DEVELOPMENTAL DISORDER that could seriously effect the quality of his life.

But he “seems happy”… Wait, in your OP, you say that you have no basis for judging how he interacts with other kids.

One thing I could never assess is how he behaved with other kids. We live in an area without any other kids to speak of, and we don’t have much time for play dates and that sort of thing.

Ok, so you don’t have the ability to judge how your child interacts with other children. But the caregivers at daycare are wrong, well, because anything different about your child is the nature of your child! He’s perfect by nature of being, right? Medical care is all about labels! How dare they label my child!

If your child had a brain tumor, is that a “quirk”? Is that the “nature” of your child? What if he needs glasses? Is that a failure to appreciate him the way he is? Are healthy children not diverse enough for you?

So the goal is to eliminate these traits through therapy, yes? To define them as undesirable, rather than to take joy in the diversity of human behavior and habit?

Yes, all illnesses, especially mental illnesses, are simply “diverse human behavior”.

Let me be clear: if I thought that Andrew or I could benefit in any way from a diagnosis of autism, I’d be all for it. Andrew is happy as a lark, and so are we.

If Andrew had trouble meeting any of his appropriate milestones, I’d get him tested.

If Andrew seemed like he had trouble enjoying life, or experiencing any of the things life had to offer, I’d have him tested.

If I had trouble enjoying Andrew, or even suspected that our lives would be better in any way with a diagnosis, I’d get him tested.

I cannot imagine him being any happier, accomplishing more, or bringing more joy to the lives of those he’s around (except possibly his daycare teachers, but they can just…calm blue ocean, calm blue ocean, calm blue ocean…). I refuse to submit to the prevailing cultural mode of effacing all deviation.

First of all, I don’t believe that. Because maybe reaching certain milestones later than most is just another “quirk”. NO, it’s NOT. You’re too easy to value “quirkiness” over “health”. Yeah, great, you consider yourself quirky. You like people who don’t relate well. You think you know better than the entire medical establishment because…

6 weeks in a psychiatry rotation in med school convinced me that medical science knows absolutely nothing about the workings of the mind.

Yeah, now you’re an expert. Six weeks in med school doesn’t confer some godlike state of all-knowing. I have many friends in med school without even a hint of that hubris. Seriously.

And I’m not saying that the daycare people are right-- they could be totally wrong and up a creek and the kid could just be destined to be a future doper or Rhodes Scholar or world-class violinist or simply a happy-go-lucky family man with a big loving family and a two-car garage. But if there’s ANY CHANCE that there’s a developmental problem with your kid, YOU BRING YOUR KID TO A DOCTOR and GET A MEDICAL OPINION. “He seems fine” is not a medical opinion. You aren’t even around him during the day! How the hell do you know??

I have to say that I’m rather surprised at how low the threshold is in this thread for declaring someone to have a possible mental defect. Call them what you will – ADHD, autism, learning disabilities, they are all neurological defects by definition, and inherently undesirable by logical extension.

Have you read Dickens? Tolstoy? Melville (ok, bad example…)? Spent time in a big city? Or really, just observed humanity anywhere? What is life if not for the endless forms, most beautiful and most wonderful, of human nature? Give a child help if he needs it, but most important of all, value him for himself, his strengths and his weaknesses, at his most brilliant and at his basest. I am deeply unhappy that my child is growing up in a place and time where diversity of spirit is so devalued. But as I’ve said before, I will not submit. Andrew is not asking for help, and I’m not going to impose it on him.

HOW CAN HE ASK FOR IT IF THIS IS ALL HE KNOWS? HE IS TWO YEARS OLD. IT IS YOUR JOB TO ASCERTAIN WHAT HE NEEDS. THAT IS WHAT PARENTING IS!

I can’t even describe how sick and angry it makes me that people think this way about the physical and mental health of their children. A medical evaluation is viewed as “submission”? As failure? A simple checkup is denying a child the right to be a child? Bull-fucking-shit.

Stand up and be a parent instead of a philosopher! Anyone who argues against simply getting a recommended medical evaluation-- we’re not even talking about “treatment”-- needs some serious sense knocked into them! Goddammit!!! :mad:

[NightRabbit]

Ooops, I meant to put this in the pit, obviously. Can a mod move it for me?

[susan]

How about cutting the obviously concerned parent a little slack as he assimilates this new and upsetting information about his child? This isn’t an emergency and if he needs to blow off some steam and push the idea away for 24 hours, I don’t think that’s a problem. He was very polite in his thread, though he disagreed with many of the posters who responded. I would think that the last thing that will help him sort this out is a pitting.

[Czarcasm]

@NightRabbit

Ooops, I meant to put this in the pit, obviously. Can a mod move it for me?

Is moved as requested.

[dangermom]

Yeah, can’t get behind this one.

[SomeUserName]

I have to agree with susan here. I don’t feel in any way that Spazurek deserves a pitting.

Children learn at their own pace. Some walk faster and some talk faster. Some are social creatures while others are fine to play by themselves. It is called personality.

So tell me NightRabbit, were you an idiot at two years old or did you learn it along the way?

[Indistinguishable]

I have no ire for either Spazurek or NightRabbit. As a parent confronted with distressing information and needing time to digest it, I don’t particularly blame Spazurek for the venting and questioning in his post. However, I do think he should definitely have his child checked, which, I think, is NightRabbit’s concern: his post is essentially out of concern for the child. Now, I’m sure Spazurel will actually end up getting his child checked, but it’s easy to see how his initial post could give the wrong impression.

I guess you could say I agree with susan but not with what SomeUserName appears to be saying: the potential problem can’t just be shrugged away by saying “Every child develops differently” and failing to confront the possibilities which have been raised. However, it’s perfectly natural for it to take time to come to terms with this.

(And, with luck, these will all turn out to have been misleading concerns in the end. But you don’t want to just depend on luck.)

[Indistinguishable]

Incidentally, in Spazurek’s post, he does explicitly say that he will have his son evaluated, so, uh, yeah, there’s really no reason to get very angry at him.

[China_Guy]

To be fair, Dad is worried and taking some time to digest here (in between all the other stuff he does). I’m reading the post of a Dad that sorta came to ask for validation, and is now sticking his fingers in his ears saying “la la la la la la” when no one agrees with him. Sheesh, where’s the harm in asking a pediatrician if parents should be concerned.

Indistiguishable, he said this “If he is having problems, I will seek a solution, including evaluation for autism if appropriate. He is not.”

Dunno, I’m reading that Dad thinks this is all about him. He’s too busy, "been educated about as much as the law allows (wtf?), done 3 months of psych work so knows what he’s taling about, his niece has some very serious issues (owing to that triple immunization). Doesn’t consider that inaction if there really is a problem may end up with his own son following the nieces path.

I’ve got a 3 year old that had hypoxic damage at birth. Gross and fine motor skill challenges, took 6 months of physical therapy to get her standing and stumbling on her own, speech acquisition seems to finally be starting now, we’re encountered our fair share of quacks, thereapists promising an easy answer and well meaning advice givers. She also has an overachieving twin sister to benchmark her against. One can’t pretend normalcy when the evidence suggests otherwise every day.

Dad needs to get overhimself, validate ***if * ** there is a problem and go from there.

[Ocean_Annie]

@NightRabbit

But the caregivers at daycare are wrong, well, because anything different about your child is the nature of your child! He’s perfect by nature of being, right? Medical care is all about labels! How dare they label my child!

It seems prudent to be cautious with labels, especially with a two year old child. It is one thing to have an obvious medical diagnosis but a different situation when the observed behavior can be attributed to any number of causes, including the day care environment.

Spazurek is processing the idea that his child might have a significant diagnosis that will impact both parent and child. I say give the guy a break.

[Purgatory_Creek]

Holy crap, you people make me happy I have no children. After reading through that thread, I come away with an ugly picture of a bunch of self-righteous people who got really pissed off because Spazurek didn’t succumb to their browbeating. Who the hell are you to tell him what is the correct way to parent his child?

There’s no doubt you’d all do it differently, and you can carry that knowledge into eternity smugly clasped to your redoubtable bosoms if it makes you happy, but there’s no way any of you can know better than Spazurek what is right for his child. He’s the one who should have created the Pit thread. He was far more polite in the original thread than he had any obligation to be.

For the record, I agree with his belief that kids are frequently labeled as anomalies of some kind simply because they’re not fitting into their assigned cubbies. I can’t say that is what’s going on with his Andrew because, like all of you, I am not in any position nor do I have any right to say what is appropriate for his son. Spazurek’s made it 2-1/2 years without fucking up badly enough to have an official judge his parenting (AFAIK), and I think he damn well has the right to decide when and if Andrew is in need of assistance.

He said several times he’d have him evaluated if he felt it necessary, but that just wasn’t good enough for the Parenting Patrol. Nothing would do but complete surrender. I admire him for standing up to the bullying.

[lissener]

Seems to me, if I were a parent–which I’m not–I’d want to be absolutely sure, and not make these kinds of decisions based on my general impressions of trends of this or too much that; Spazurek seems, at least to me, to be viewing his child (in this instance at least) as some kind of an abstract symbol in some kind of pet peeve issue of his, rather than a specific child with specific needs.

Your kid is not a trend or a symbol, dude.

[Oregon_sunshine]

I, for one, think that most “mental illness” is actually diverse human behavior that has been conveniently pathologized by those who own and control the media, in order to sell pharmaceuticals and further control and manipulate the populace. It’s right to be suspicious of harmful labels imposed on us by complete strangers who say they are “experts”. If this was my kid, I would be seriously looking askance at these daycare providers.

[Hello_Again]

@unconventional

It seems prudent to be cautious with labels, especially with a two year old child. .

Here’s what I don’t get. WHAT label is going to attach to his child by being evaluated? Medical records and diagnosis are confidential. The only way a school or anyone else finds out, is if you tell them. You tell them if you believe there is some benefit to telling them, and for no other reason.

Spazurek’s fears that his child will be considered “defective” by others, strikes me as projection. The only one who would necessarily know about it at all would be him and his wife.

[LilGypsyGirl]

Wow, NightRabbit…I hope you realize you’ve opened up a GIGANTIC can of worms here. You have lots to say for someone that doesn’t have a child - and lots to say to someone who does. :rolleyes:

Good luck getting out of this one in one piece.

[Abby_Emma_Sasha]

I certainly don’t want to judge Spazz (I’m sorry I cannot find his name) and he may very well be justified in not testing his child, but I cannot help but notice he interjects the I pronoun instead of we.

We have beem hearing how you feel, and that is fine. Can you tell us how your significant other feels about this whole thing?

[Elenfair]

Personally? I think the parenting is best left to the parent of the child.

The daycare workers brought up their concerns. Let the parent decide where to go from here.

We are quick to label, these days. Ten years ago, every child who didn’t fit in the box had ADD. Now, it’s an Autism Spectrum Disorder. I, too, would want to exercise caution before running to the nearest neuropsychologist and having a child tested. Yes, there is value in early intervention, but there can also be value in being conservative about “treatment”.

We live in a culture where we think we can fix people by throwing money, drugs, magical therapies and doctors at them. Sometimes we can – often we can – do a great deal of good. Sometimes we can dole out a great deal of pain. When it comes to children, it’s a tough call. You have to balance the need for early intervention with the accuracy of the diagnosis.

I don’t envy the parent’s position at all.

Spazurek, enjoy your little guy. Keep an eye on what’s happening and take the teachers’ observation to heart. It’s your child, go with your gut and your heart and to some degree your medical knowledge, but be careful there – it’s a dangerous trap. It’s easy to rationalize and make the data fit the theory. You know that as much as I do. For the cold, hard science, trust your medical colleagues’ opinions if you request them.

Just my 0.02, as a (former) totally weird kid who probably would have been diagnosed as having every possible “flavor-of-the-year” disorder as a child if her parents hadn’t stuck to the “no, she’s just really odd” diagnosis her father’s colleagues had kindly given…

[FordPrefect]

I won’t speak to the autism or the need for a checkup since that is outside of my experience. But it is my experience that the parents with all the answers are always those that have no children.

[bbs2k]

Holy shit NightRabbit, fuck you.

I have no part in this fight, because I saw that thread and didn’t feel the need to comment, but you can win the asshole of the week award.

A parent of a child, came to us for some advice (not answers) and you feel the need to attack him over this?

Full disclosure:

@spazurek

My wife and I are both educated about as much as the law will allow. She’s in medical residency and I’m working on various options in academia. In other words we’re both way too busy to responsibly have a kid, but there you go.

This makes you sound rather self centered and disconnected.

@spazurek

Andrew spent that year going to daycare about 11 hours a day and hating it. He cried almost every day I dropped him off, often to the point that I had to peel him off as he desperately clung to me and hand him off to the teacher.

This makes it sound like you don’t spend enough time with your kid.

Now for the rest of the thread you express how much you really do care for Andrew, and are worried about his health and seeking the possibility of treatment if he is in fact slightly to moderately autistic (INMO, too early to really tell, and in my non-psychology trained opinion is not). So I harbor no real ill-will.

You on the other hand:

@NightRabbit

HOW CAN HE ASK FOR IT IF THIS IS ALL HE KNOWS? HE IS TWO YEARS OLD. IT IS YOUR JOB TO ASCERTAIN WHAT HE NEEDS. THAT IS WHAT PARENTING IS!

Sound like a prick.

[Dangerosa]

@FordPrefect

I won’t speak to the autism or the need for a checkup since that is outside of my experience. But it is my experience that the parents with all the answers are always those that have no children.

I have children, and I think he has a point.

If you have little experience with children, and the people you pay (apparently a lot of money to, this seems to be a private daycare) have concerns about your child - you don’t hold your hands over your ears and make excuses about individualism. Or maybe you do.

Austism benefits from early intervention. Chances are, the kid isn’t autistic - but if he is, kindergarten will be hard - harder without the intervention. Not from an intellectual standpoint, but because children are much less tolerant of other children’s quirks than Spazurek is willing to be for his own kid.