All done. Let the dueling punditry commence.
Umm, did I hear Mueller respond to the question about whether Trump answered his written responses truthfully by saying that he did not?
Isn’t that a crime?
I expect he took the job of special counsel out of a sense of duty to the country, but I also expect he feels a need to be seen as apolitical. So he went out of his way to write the report as non-partisan as possible, and now he’s trying to stay entirely within the bounds of the report.
I think he’s much too married to this old-school view of being “above politics”, or something like that, but there’s nothing we can do about it. I’m not sure if a more political actor would have been a better choice – they would have been far more likely to either act to exonerate Trump, or go far enough in trying to pursue Trump’s wrongdoing that Trump would have had them fired.
Lying under oath is what got Bill Clinton impeached.
iowrdi
Sometimes I feel like I’m the only person who’s been paying attention during the past 3 years. I’ve been hearing non-stop from everyone how Muller was going to bring Trump down any day now, and I maintained the entire time that it would amount to nothing, and nobody believed me. I said, “Trump’s ONLY TALENT is avoiding consequences.” They all said, “nah, this guy Muller, he’s very thorough, he’s a real badass, he’s gonna bring it all toppling down.” Actually, they all said “Trump isn’t even going to run, come on, you know that means he’d have to disclose his taxes.” I said, “he doesn’t give a fuck, he’s not gonna play by the rules,” and surely enough he didn’t. Then they all said “the GOP will freeze him out, he’ll never get the nomination, not a chance in hell” and…“Hillary will mop the floor with him”.
What people don’t understand is that attempting to find loopholes to make this nightmare disappear is never going to work, and only makes his detractors look incompetent. Trying to impeach him will just be setting up for failure, and it will have the same result. The only way to beat him is to beat him.
I do understand that Mueller wants to avoid appearing partisan - but he has neutered himself. I don’t understand how someone who successfully prosecuted Trump’s underlings could now go to such lengths to avoid calling Trump out - for refusing to testify, for obstruction…
There must have been a better way to approach this. How about making a stand for the rule of law?
What Lamoral said.
Haven’t watched or read a transcript from this week, but I have heard that Mr. Mueller’s position (shared by Mr. Trump’s DOJ) is that the President is quite literally immune from criminal prosecution. That means it is impossible for the President to be convicted of a crime, unless he is actually impeached and convicted by Congress. Couple this with the presumption of innocence and the answer to your question must be a very legalese ‘not unless he is impeached and convicted’.
He can be impeached and convicted by Congress for “Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors”. It’s up to the Congress to decide what that means. This was somewhat elaborated in one of the Federalists… for the founder’s views on this subject…
Here it is, Federalist 65:
Perjury has been held to be an impeachable offense in the past when Judge Walter Nixon was removed from office in 1989. Contrary to the opinion of some, the official verdict in President Clinton’s trial was “not guilty”, not a Senatorial jury nullification.
~Max
“So, why did the United States collapse? I’m still having a hard time with this one, professor.”
“Well, you see, somebody wrote a memo. And that memo apparently had the force of law. And that memo prevented anybody from removing a President who committed crimes, even though the US was founded on the principle that no one was above the law. Which they weren’t until someone wrote a memo.”
“WHAT?”
“Yes. A fucking memo is all it took.”
“But… I mean… couldn’t somebody just have written another memo?”
“You’d think. But everyone acted as if this memo was some fiat handed down by God, so it just wasn’t done. Wasn’t even considered.”
“Holy shit, they were stupid.”
As much as I admire a firm commitment to principle…this is a man who was willing to take a bullet for his country, he can’t bend a principle when stern duty demands? That is too much of a sacrifice for a patriot?
Upside: that video bite of being asked if he “exonerated” Il Douche. “No”. We here all pretty much know that, sure. But when we tell somebody else, they had to look it up, go the extra mile. This is right there, inna you face. I think that matters. The lumpen won’t see much of this, but they will see that. The ones who took Barr at his word, the one’s who heard Trump say he was exonerated, the one’s who are easy targets for solid and simple sound bites…
Maybe enough. Time will tell, and both sides do it.
Boy, we got Trump now!. This is what we have all been waiting for! Someone is going to trip and say something that they shouldn’t have said. Then there will be more questions. And those questions will have inadequate answers. So we keep going. All through Donald’s second term and half way through Ivanka’s first term.
With a shovel, a baseball bat, or a less illegal and more procedural kind of assault weapon? Just what procedure do you have in mind here?
What do you think? You think I’m gonna advocate physical harm to the president on this forum? No, I don’t know why you’d even bring that up, I mean to beat him in the election. I think that was pretty implicit in what I said.
I agree to the extent that what this orange assclown has demonstrated (without forethought) is how ineffectual the US government institutions and norms really are. When a weak minded buffoon like Trump can disregard congressional oversight, flout rules of conduct dictated by established regulatory bodies, refuse judicial regulations and constitutional laws (i.e. Treasury shall furnish to Congress…), any rational individual should quickly realize that the thin veneer called “Rule of Law” is in need of serious rethinking as far as providing actual enforceable consequential actions against those who would think it doesn’t apply to them.
If this Mueller hearing farce accomplishes anything, I hope it’s to make that abundantly clear to all those who still believe in some idealized version of America’s exceptionalism and institutional checks & balances.
The 1973 and 2000 memos are binding on DOJ employees and I think it is well justified. It was and continues to be valid not because it was handed down by God, but because the DOJ agrees with its contents. If you want to start a thread about it I might jump in on the defense.
~Max
But back to what Lamoral was saying, it’s the voters themselves and their common faith in political institutions and political and legal systems that largely undergird or undermine them. The systems themselves were stronger at one time, but they’re weakened now because fewer people identify with them. We’re losing a sense of a shared value system, which is what we’re seeing and why everything now seems like political theater. I don’t know if there’s a remedy until we can get people to buy into the democratic and political norms we seem to have lost.
My favorite line:
Mueller: I’m not going to discuss that.
Congressman: You put in your report. Page 196.
In general Mueller came across as your grandfather when you start looking for a home.
This is absolutely a disaster for the Dems. No new information came out and from what little I heard Mueller came across as evasive and dottering. When he evaded the issues on the Steele Portfolio and the Clinton campaign’s relation to the Russians and there was a person who reported contact to the Russians (forgot the name - sorry) who later lied to the investigators three times and was NOT indicted. Really shows favoritism.
I know the Dems wanted Mueller to say “Trump is guilty of obstruction but I can’t indict him” but he didn’t and at a few points implied Trump didn’t obstruct. IMHO impeachment is now off the table.
No need to start a thread re: some silly theory about how a memo ordered by a President under legal duress actually makes sense, especially given the near-200 year history prior to that when the country was running fine without this memo.
I see what you mean. :dubious: