Specific General General Question

Factual Questions
1

In late 1863 (maybe early 1864; I’m writing this from my dubious memory), Ulysses Simpson Grant was promoted to the rank of 3-star General. This was quite an honor, as the only previous holder of that rank had been George Washington during the Revolutionary War (Winfried Scott would be made a 3-star General during the Mexican-American War, but only by brevet, so he never ‘officially’ held the rank).

With that in mind, here’s my question.

In many of the texts I have read, Grant’s rank is referred to as “Lieutenant General.” I know why Lieutenant Generals outrank Major Generals (see Cecil’s column archives if you don’t). However, the title of ‘Lieutenant General’ seems to specifically denote lieutenancy to someone. So why was Grant named ‘Lieutenant General’ rather than ‘General of the Armies’?

My theories:
1.) Grant was named General of the Armies, but when the 4-star General rank was created in World War I, the 3-star General rank was re-named ‘Lieutenant General’, and subsequent texts referred to Grant by that title.

2.) The Americans were modelling their rank system upon the Europeans, who called their 3-star Generals- or, at least the person of comparable command size as Grant- ‘Lieutenant General’.

3.) The rank of ‘Lieutenant General’ indicates subordination to the true Commander-in-Chief, the President.

4.) Congress had the amazing foresight to realize it would need a 4-star General rank at some point, so rather than having to go through a re-naming of the rank later, they just decided to call it ‘Lieutenant General’ in deference to the 4-star Generals yet-to-be.

5.) Grant was so drunk he thought he was a Lieutenant again, and everyone else was too embarassed to make a big deal out of it, so they just called him ‘Lieutenant General’ as a compromise.

Anyone have an answer?

JMCJ

“Y’know, I would invite y’all to go feltch a dead goat, but that would be abuse of a perfectly good dead goat and an insult to all those who engage in that practice for fun.” -weirddave, set to maximum flame

2

And whatever happened to the Corporal Captain rank that was introduced during the Korean War? :smiley: :smiley: :smiley:

Wrong thinking is punished, right thinking is just as swiftly rewarded. You’ll find it an effective combination.

3

Boy, do I have an answer for you on this question. I’ve been sorta waiting for someone to ask a question like this. Unfortunately, I have to get something out at work now, but I’ll post it later today.

Bill

You don’t have a thing to worry about. I’ll have the jury eating out of my hand. Meanwhile, try to escape.

Sig by Wally M7, master signature architect to the SDMB

4

Well I reread your question, carefully this time, and – RATS – you’re not asking the question I thought you were.

I thought it was why does a Lieutenant General outrank a Major General, which I hadn’t realized that Cecil had already answered. I was prepared to give essentially the answer Cecil gave, but in full song and dance form. (I can also do a number on Navy ranks, too.)

Nonetheless, I can answer your question, too.

The short answer is that when Grant was promoted from Major (2 star) General in 1864, he went to the next rank up, Lieutenant (3 star) General (the corresponding rank in European armies). Two years later, he was promoted to General of the Army of the United States, and took a four star insignia.

Some of the background behind this is that the United States was from its founding until at least World War I was wary of high-ranking military officers. The Navy did not appoint its rear admirals until 1862, for fear of the rank’s close ties to royalty (the King of England as Lord High Admiral). A vice admiral and a full admiral were appointed a few years after that, but those offices were allowed to lapse after the civil war era officers died, not to be reinstated until 1915. Similarly, other than Grant, William Sherman and Phillip Sheridan, there were no officers above Lieutenant General until World War I.

For a full discussion of the ranks held by the top U.S. army officers, you can check out this page from the U.S. Navy Historical Center website.

You don’t have a thing to worry about. I’ll have the jury eating out of my hand. Meanwhile, try to escape.

Sig by Wally M7, master signature architect to the SDMB

5

Here’s a list of the big dogs and their titles:

  • George Washington, “General and Commander-in-Chief of the Army of the United Colonies.” Incidentally, Washington resigned his commission at the end of the Revolution and later accepted a “lesser” position, “Lieutenant-General and Commander in Chief of all the Armies,” in 1798, in anticipation of a war with France that never really materialized. He was re-elevated in 1976 to General of the Armies of the United States, posthumously, of course.

  • Grant, Sherman, and Sheridan, “General of the Army of the United States” (this was a post-Civil War title, as approved by Congress, July 25, 1866). Grant also held the unique position of “General of the Army on the Retired List.”

  • Pershing, “General of the Armies of the United States,” plural.

According to the Army, the raft of five-star generals that arose from World War II were a new grade, often known simply as “General,” and are not considered to be equal to the “supreme” rank of the first five Big Guys. But judging by the typographical errors of my “official” source, I could be wrong:
http://www-perscom.army.mil/tagd/tioh/rank/goa.htm

6

Oops! For the WWII guys, that’s “General of the Army (five star),” also temporary in wartime but made permanent the year after hostilities ended. I still maintian they were most often known in print as “General,” with the fifth star noted. And there weren’t all that many, either. Marshall, Ike, MacArthur, Bradley, Clark, and (briefly) Hap Arnold are all I can name off the top of my head.

7

Billdo,

A minor quibble: the title of Lord High Admiral is not automatically held by the monarch - and in fact it is rarely held by anyone.

From 1628, the office was frequently put “in commission,” which meant that the powers of the office were exercised by a Board of Commissioners. From 1709 to 1827, the office of Lord High Admiral was continuously in commission, and again from 1828 to the reign of Elizabeth II.

In 1827-28, William, Duke of Clarence held the office (he became king in 1830), while Elizabeth has named herself Lord High Admiral.

The practice of putting the office “in commission” led to the creation of the “Board of Commissioners for exercising the office of Lord High Admiral,” composed of a combination of political figures and high-ranking naval officers. Traditionally, the civilian who chaired the Board was termed the First Lord of the Admiralty, while the highest ranking naval officer on the Board was the First Sea Lord. The office of First Lord was abolished in the 60s and replaced with the Defence Minister.

Winston Churchill was First Lord of the Admiralty during WWI and briefly at the beginning of WWII.

8

Note that while the Federals promoted Grant up to Lieutenant General (3 stars), which made him the highest-ranking US general officer, the Confederates had the rank of full General (4 stars today) which was awarded to a number of officers.

My understanding of the current general-officer grades, which I get from the World Almanac:

General of the Armies (note the plural). Created for John J. Pershing during World War One–he is the only active officer to ever hold the grade. As noted by Sofa King, George Washington was awarded the grade in 1976. General Washington was not available for comment afterwards.

Pershing was authorized to create his own insignia, but he never did. In terms of stars, General of the Armies would be 6 stars–one grade above the 5-star rank. There is no naval equivalent.

General of the Army (singular)/Fleet Admiral. 5 stars. Inactive–the last person to hold the grade was Omar Bradley, I believe. Fleet Admiral is specifically reserved for wartime use.

General–yes, just “General”/Admiral–yes, just “Admiral.” 4 stars. The highest active grade in the US armed forces.

Lieutenant General/Vice Admiral. 3 stars. No, I don’t believe 3-star admirals are in charge of vice.

Major General/Rear Admiral (Upper Half). 2 stars.

Brigadier General/Rear Admiral (Lower Half). 1 star. Rear Admiral (Lower Half) is what used to be known as “Commodore.” Why they changed it, I can’t say…maybe they liked it better that way. No, you can’t go back to being a Commodore, you can’t go back to being a Commodore, now it’s Lower Half, not no more a Commodore…

Uh…it must be time for bed…