Specifically, why are some people so disturbed by another's childfree status?

In My Humble Opinion
81

I do mean it that way, for me. I would think of myself as ‘shackled’ by having kids and do feel that I have a level of freedom that works for me. But I don’t think that about people that have and want them. That’s the point I was making about universal value judgments v. individual.

Like my brother and his wife, they have been married 12 years and just had their first child last week. They certainly fell under the childless category and now have what they’ve wanted and craved all along. I couldn’t be happier for them and certainly don’t think of them as shackled to anything.

82

I have no children. Neither do my brothers, for that matter. My two best friends are childfree, in that they’ve both made the decision not to have children. It ranges from in, my case, sadness at never having had the opportunity to have children to a deliberate choice that kids are fine for other people but not for them. No one hates kids, and no one thinks that children are the key to a fulfilling life.

Except.

I have another friend, a witty and capable woman, who is not just childfree but refuses to take on any obligation to any living thing that would be dependent on her. Not a pet. Not a goldfish. Not even a houseplant. She is, to every measure of our modern society, a consummate adult. Her bills are paid, her savings account is full, and her retirement account is the envy of financial planners. She is law-abiding and politically engaged. She is also inflexible, demanding, and frequently lacking in empathy. I can’t help but wonder if she wouldn’t be a better person if she’d had a child. She’s honorable enough that if she found herself a parent, she would do her level best by her child, and I think that would be the key. She’s never put anyone else’s day to day and long term interests before her own. She’s never had to deal with her plans being shot to hell before 7 a.m. because someone else was sick and needed her. She’s never been in a situation where she couldn’t walk away from that other person and call it quits. In fact, from the outside, it looks a lot like she’s designed her life to be exactly that way. And since it’s never come to that, I think there’s a part of her that is not quite fully developed. I think she’s ended up the less because of it.

Is it any of my business? Hell, no. Have I ever voiced my thoughts on this to her or any one who knows her? I’d sooner cut my tongue out. She is still a very good person, better than most, and I’m privileged to call her a friend. But I do wonder.

83

You have near-absolute control over where your baby screams. Everybody slips up occasionally, but if you get defensive like that, complaints are well-placed.

84

:dubious: Yeah, sounds like she’d make a *great *parent!

You sound like the type of person who would tell a couple on the verge of a break-up to have a child as a way to keep them together.

85

So people are supposed to design their lives to be good, but not too good. :dubious:

86

I do notice that people with kids, and without kids, cannot really mix that well socially. It started to bug me in my late 20’s when friends with kids would bring their kids over to my house and expect my house to be child-safe. It wasnt. I had my action figures out and I had some swords and dangerous things also.

No, I wasnt going to put them away.

Now that I have kids I see it from the other side.

87

I’m a vegetarian, and have been for 27 years. I have noticed an inverse relationship between the length of time someone has been a vegan or vegetarian, and their tendency to be preachy, self-righteous, or proselytizing about it. Don’t even know someone is a vegetarian until you happen to notice over a couple of meals that they never eat meat? they’ve probably been vegetarian for many years. Someone gets in your face, and demands special menu changes at your wedding? became a vegetarian five weeks ago. Probably also has brand new subscriptions to three different vegetarian cooking and lifestyle magazines, and gave a donation to PETA.

There may be something like that with childfree-ness, so that young people who have recently made a decision bring it up more, and hear about it more, while people in their forties rarely do. Perhaps the board, or at least the people on this thread are tending to be closer to middle age.

88

phouka, it’s true that your friend may become a better person if she has a kid. But there’s a high likelihood that she would not. I mean, it’s not as if every parent out there is warm, empathic, and responsible. There are a ton of crappy parents out there, and they were likely crappy non-parents too.

Also, I’d argue that a person should not have a child to improve their flawed character. I know I wouldn’t want to be used that way. I’d want someone to create me because they wanted me, not because they wanted the therapeutic benefits.

Give your friend a houseplant or a goldfish if you want her to be more caring. Only people who are already empathic and caring should be trusted with children. Half the world’s problems could be solved if we could enshrined this in law.

89

If your in your 40’s and have kids most likely the kids are teens or older. Plus they have been living the childfree life for so long they emphasize and wouldnt be pushy.

But there are always exceptions.

90

I don’t doubt that some people get hassled about a lack of kids because I’ve experienced some myself. No, it’s not about being over-sensitive (usually), it’s about someone in the majority having no clue about being in the minority (usually).

Having kids is the default and the normal and for many people conforming to society norms and expectations is important. You grow up, get married/have a partner, get a house, get kids… They follow the expectation and it never occurs to them to deviate, or someone doing something different is disturbing to them because it can be interpreted either as rebellion against the norm or defiance.

These days, when the topic comes up I usually say that children didn’t happen for us and we’re OK with that. Most people accept that and move on. Sometimes they don’t, and that’s when it gets annoying.

I have had people insist I can not be happy without giving birth to children of my own because, since I’m a woman, that’s my role/destiny in life. I have had people ask probing and nosey questions about the medical history of both myself and my spouse, and while it usually comes from a benign place it’s unreasonable and prying. I’ve had people try to push adoption on us. I have had people tell me to divorce my spouse “before it’s too late” and find “a man who can give you children”. Much of them time I now find these reactions amusing but yes, if I was more sensitive it could be excruciating. “Sensitivity” has a role in how I react, but it’s not a factor in idiots saying stupid or inappropriate stuff.

But those are exceptions. MOST people understand it’s a private matter and shut the hell up.

Oh, and I never got pressured to have kids by my parents or in-laws - the in-laws because my spouse’s mom knew he couldn’t have kids. My parents because they were pretty firm that people shouldn’t have kids unless they wanted them, they were aware my spouse had medical issues, and my parents were remarkable about to prying into their adult children’s business. Also, my sisters had the grandkids before I got married, so that was never a factor (and I suspect even if they hadn’t my parents still wouldn’t have said anything).

Why don’t people have kids?

  • one or both partners can’t for medical reasons
  • there might be a genetic risk
  • they choose not to have children

Two of those reasons are highly personal and no one’s business outside the couple involved.

I also point out to busy-bodies that I do, in fact, have children in my life, my sisters have offspring so I still have family - I’m not a freakin’ orphan! Any inheritance I leave will be to friends, sisters, and my nieces/nephews rather than to children of my own. I know how to hold a baby, change a diaper, and coo over babies - and no, none of it is painful or dredges up regrets. Yes, I know - no kids and not a sobbing wreck, how shocking! Also, no kids but likes kids - how shocking!

91

Humanity always seems to fall into a bell curve. On one side you have people who vocally tell you there must be something wrong with you if you don’t have a brood by the time you are 25. On the other there are people who complain if children enter their field of vision at all. Most fall in the middle.

92

No, s/he doesn’t. What an incredibly stupid thing to say.

93

What nonsense! I guess she has no parents? No lover?

How can people convince themselves of nonsense like this, I wonder. Do they really believe that only children require sacrifice? Only married people have relationships they can’t just walk away from? And apparently all have careers they can just walk off from. Like they don’t also have bills to pay and a roof over their heads to maintain. What kind of world are they living in?

I’m guessing one where they only see their own sacrifices as having any real value.

94

I have a child, and the general reason I would never ask anyone about their child status (unless I am very close to them, and even then, it’s unlikely) is that it’s none of my damned business, and, even if well intentioned, you don’t know if the couple is currently trying to have kids, unsuccessfully, has already lost one or more to miscarriages, or cannot have kids for whatever reason. Why potentially add stress to what could be an already very stressful situation for these people? Or they just don’t want kids, which I totally understand as well. You don’t know their situation. Even when my parents asked about it or obliquely referred to it, it annoyed me, and it still annoys me when my parents (well, just my mom, really) ask my brother and his wife about it.

95

Some people have never had to take time off work to look after their parents or lovers. In fact, I’d say most people under 50 haven’t; after that it becomes more common to look after your parents or for your partner to be ill enough to need assistance from you.

And I don’t think panache has kids, so you’re kinda off the mark there.

96

HA! This is me in many ways.
I have some fish and some houseplants, and a loving partner. I don’t have any bigger pets because I admit I don’t want the responsibility. I am a little bit in debt because I just went back to school. I take vacations and have money in my savings and in my retirement account. A lot of this is because I didn’t have any kids to spend money on.

I certainly don’t have anyone I can never walk away from, but I do have my SO and my plans have certainly been shot to hell because he needed me, and same goes for him.

Yes, I designed my life to be this way. But here’s what you don’t know about me by simply hearing the moniker “childless”. When I was young, and when my SO was young, we both had unmarried aunts who added joy to our lives. They spoiled us and scolded us, wiped our tears, gave us unadulterated love, taught us things our mothers couldn’t.

I want to be that woman. I have always wanted to be that woman. Now at Christmas and birthdays my nieces and nephews get extra gifts and they get extra love. They know there’s a whole family of people who love them, not just grandma/grandpa and parents but aunt and uncle too. They can come to us to ask us things. We take them out for ice cream and spoil them. We play with them when their parents are tired.

It takes a village to raise a child and I am happy to be part of that village. I resent the fact that being “childfree/childless” means I am somehow selfish. On the contrary, I feel I give plenty of myself. But when I come home, I don’t want any kids there, and I feel like this is not only the right decision for me, it is the moral decision. No one who doesn’t want kids should ever have them. To me it’s like being straight: I was born this way. I never wanted kids. Even when I was little I never played House or dollies unless my friends wanted to. I have empathy and kindness and I’d probably be a good mother. But, I don’t want to. I thank my lucky stars every day that I live in an era that I can make that choice. I am happy for any woman who is happy in her life, even if I might look askance at four kids under four. :slight_smile:

97

Sure she does. By her own description, her friend would make a horrible parent, but she should have a kid anyway cause kids fix everything.

98

You’re right but on the other hand I’ve definitely noticed a peculiar lack of ethics when (some!) people suggest children. Like they’re a grand experiment in personal enrichment, not an autonomous human being that deserves to be cared for.

Like, if I say, “I really don’t like babies, they’re kind of disgusting, very boring, and a tremendous hassle” and the person replies “oh it’s different when they’re your own.” Oh? And what if it’s not? How is it ethical to take that risk with another human’s life? Why would you pressure – or even suggest – a child as a sort of experiment? If someone doesn’t like dogs no one would call it ethical to pressure them to get one. And you can easily surrender and even legally kill a dog if it’s annoying you!

I will note that I’m in the child protective field, and people, especially women, are MUCH more supportive of “if you don’t want kids don’t have them” than the general population. Obviously they’ve seen the results of unwanted and discarded children. It just isn’t true that everyone has the desire and ability to raise a child. It just isn’t true that everyone rises to the occasion. The results when they don’t are sad.

99

Bob is drugless. :smiley:

100

They do this, too! :slight_smile: And they pressure you to buy a house. So it’s not like we aren’t getting pressure from every side on everything. But it seems particularly odd with a child, another human life!