I like what you are saying. I too had a “childless” uncle who was always our favorite. Why? because he had time to be an uncle.
I’d bet the childfree on this board have made great aunts and uncles.
It wasn’t me who described her friend as “inflexible, demanding, and frequently lacking in empathy.”
You know, perfect qualities in a mother.
Like a lot of teenagers I’ve met. It’s amazing how much change people are capable of, sometimes.
Eh, my experiences are like yours (no one gives me grief about not having kids), but I think you’re oversimplifying here. In the first scenario, few people might directly accuse Sheila of being selfish. But that doesn’t mean she won’t be the recipient of rude or condescending commentary, behind her back and to her face. Warnings about being all alone in the nursing home during holidays, lectures about life’s true purpose, and having it assumed at work that your free time can be used to compensate for co-worker parents all send negative messages to childless people.
To be fair, Samantha will also deal with stuff too. But I think more concessions and excuses are made for busy parents than busy non-parents. I recently started a thread that mentions my fiancé’s sister–a mother of 3 small kids. A recent phone conversation with her rubbed me the wrong way, but I’m inclined to pardon her because I know she has her hands full. If she was a high-powered surgeon who was equally stretched but without kids, would I be cutting her this slack? Doubtful.
Having a career is as much of a choice has having a bunch of kids, but as a society we don’t value them the same way.
On the “you should have kids, you’d be a great mom!” thing being a complement -
I used to get that all the time (now that I’m 50+ it’s ‘should’ve had them’…) because I’ve always had multiple animals and gone to the ends of the earth to care for them. People would translate my dedication to my animals into doing the same for kids. I also taught kids to ride, and the kids liked me and I had fun with them.
And yes, if I’d had a kid I probably would have been a good mom, and raised a good kid.
But the thing is, I didn’t WANT to be a mom. Just because I could do something well doesn’t mean I must do it, and if that’s selfish well then so be it. I’m a selfish horrible person. And I enjoy my life 
This is really the nub of the matter - some people feel that society should value children and child-rearing, and some feel it is essentially like any other activity, job or hobby, and should be of equal social value. The two groups, naturally, have very different priorities and these are bound to clash.
The various competing claims of being harrased, insulted and oppressed strike me as simply the way all debates these days have to be framed - apparently, no-one takes anyone seriously unless they can claim some sort of victimhood.
Thank you!
I have a sort of interesting thing to tell about this. I got a lot of pressure to have kids all through my twenties and my early thirties. I look young for my age, but finally around 35 the comments slowed down significantly and I’d say in the last four years I only got about one or two per year.
Right around the time we both hit 35, though - my SO started getting comments and pressure to have a child! I guess people now think it’s his turn. 
I was amused.
My Aunt is childfree (not sure she’d use that label) but she and her husband have decided not to have children. She has been a best friend/sister figure in my life since the day I was born. In fact, I lived with her when I legally emancipated at age 17 and I cannot fathom making it through adolescence without her. She is happy with her two little dogs and can’t wait for me to have a child she can spoil. Sometimes she theorizes that she doesn’t feel an overwhelming need to raise children because, in some way, she already did that, with me.
I feel the need to point out this window decal, which I, who might currently be described as childless, find hilarious.
When our last surviving parent survived a devastating stroke that left them fully bedridden, it was we, the childless, who stepped in, and up, to a task that would require a complete change in lifestyle. It was the biggest challenge of our lives and we did it for 6yrs. I was the primary caregiver and it all but consumed my life, (though I was honoured to do so!)
People raising children could never have attempted this level of care or lifestyle disruption! There were other siblings, but they had kids! (And they did what they could!)
Our peers, colleagues and friends were openly aghast when we took it on, it was just so, so much! And many had been through moving a parent into a care facility. People often remarked on how they were seeing us differently, admiring our commitment, commenting on the self sacrifice, etc. (On the rare occasions we actually got out of the house!)
It’s not only about being the cool aunt or uncle. Having children is not the only way to contribute to the family or society. Child rearing not the only demanding, self scarifying task.
My mother asked me to shoot her if necessary, so that she doesn’t become as debilitated as her mother. I plan to tell her that I won’t shoot her, but I will go to Mexico and get the Nembutal.
End slight hijack!
As someone who doesn’t have kids but one day hopes to have them, I can see both sides of the divide. A society that values children and child-rearing is a very good thing. But it can go too far if it encourages people to make value judgements about parents and non-parents.
This issue intersects with sexism too, and I think that fuels a lot of the angst. Notice how astorian’s examples both pertain to women. Men and their reproductive choices don’t fall under scrunity as much; the default assumption is that being an effective bread-winner will always be his primary concern in life with or without children. A guy is more likely to be queried about what he does for a living, and will be judged accordingly.
By having children, a woman also conforms to the feminine ideal in a way that childless women do not. Any woman that bucks the norm could easily be perceived as making a political statement. A statement that requires explaining.
And then there’s the biological clock thing. A woman in her 30’s often attracts busybodies who feel duty-bound to remind her about her dwindling fertility. As if that message isn’t out there already and as if getting pregnant is an automatic desire of hers. A man doesn’t have to deal with this noise nor defend themselves against it all the time, because his fertility isn’t regarded as a short-lived and highly prized possession.
Here’s a clue for everyone; people who are doing serious caregiving, actually dealing with end of life issues, for someone they love, are unlikely to find your cracking wise, (in avoidance of the very serious end of life issues that most families will deal with) amusing!
I cannot tell you how many people took time to tell me, “they’d rather have a bullet to the head!” Unless you’re asking me to do it, keep that shit to yourself. And if they don’t say that they may say like Lemmytheseal2, how they joke with their mum! Ha, ha, ha!
I have no idea what makes people do this but it’s much more often than you imagine. Initially it didn’t bother me so much, I imagined our circumstance triggered people’s issues, they were just uncomfortable, didn’t know what to say, etc. but over six years it got old really, really fast.
And they’d do so, over tea, in my livingroom, my loved one in the next room! Dear God, what the hell is wrong with people? After awhile I found I could not even respond. It took all my strength to keep from shouting WTF!
Now you know. Please, please don’t be one of those people! (Apologies for continuing the hijack, I saw my shot to finally get that off my chest, and couldn’t resist. Sorry again!)
I question the notion that having children should be thought of as a default social good. Obviously I don’t judge people for having or wanting to have children any more than not having or not wanting to have children. However, the idea that parenthood is a brave and noble task in which people sacrifice for the benefit of society seems pretty suspect to me. Population growth isn’t exactly struggling right now, there are plenty of unwanted kids already in the world, and I’d feel pretty shitty as a child to think my parents thought they were making some noble sacrifice on my behalf. That’s leaving aside all the people having kids who really just should not. I think most people, whatever their life choices, are motivated by self-interest, and trying to put some kind of martyr/saint face on child-rearing is just distasteful to me. I will have children because I want them, you will not have children because you don’t want them, and we all live with the consequences, for better or worse. I don’t see the point in making it more complicated than that.
(ETA: This is my way of agreeing with elbows.)
To my mind, it is a simple clash of social priorities.
The group on the end of the spectrum that values children and child-rearing is bound to have some members who get obnoxious and judgmental. Likewise, the group on the end of the spectrum that holds the POV that all such activities are of equal social utitlity are bound to have members that hold absurdly anti-child positions, equally obnoxious and judgmental.
Why the focus on the obnoxious and judgmental, rather than on the priorities? Two reasons: (1) the obnoxious are more noticable, but more importantly: (2) in our society, at the present time, claiming some sort of victimhood or oppression = legitimacy.
Thus, those on the “child” end of the spectrum are likely to emphasize that supporting the parental position has greater impact on women, and so opposing it has a differential impact on women, and so “intersects with sexism” (for example, access to affordable daycare and generous parental leave - something of interest only to parents - is everywhere associated with higher earnings and status for women as compared with men); those on the “childfree” end of the spectrum, to emphasize that supporting the parental position has greater impact on women who have a shorter fertility window and greater societal expectations, and so “intersects with sexism”.
The real issue ought to be “which position makes society a better place as a whole”, not “which group is more obnoxious and/or oppressive”.
I was really surprised by this response. I was being completely serious, and I assumed my mother was as well.
Not to pressure you, but plenty of people get married in their late 30s and have kids. I just had my first kids at 42 (my wife is 39). My younger brother is 40 and has a newborn and a 2 year old. A bunch of my friends are around the same age and have children ranging in age from 0-4 years old.
Also, as a new parent, it helps knowing that in the State of New Jersey, I have up to a year to return the baby to the nearest hospital, police or fire station.
You make a valid point, however this is my child and you’re some nobody stranger in a Starbucks or wherever. Whose side do you think I’m going to take?
Some people seem to act as if it is a personal affront that someone brought a baby to the same store, coffee shop or bar where they happen to be.
I don’t think you can sort people into piles like this without missing some relevant pieces.
The truth is a lot of people who are obnoxiously opinionated about this stuff aren’t actually concerned about priorities. Obnoxious people are obnoxious regardless of their actual priorities. They may claim belief in certain positions to rationalize their opinions, but the truth is they just want to make themselves feel superior to others.
This is not unique to child-rearing in the slightest. Any issue that has moral baggage attached to it has the potential to polarize. Usually the most vocal and judgemental types are people who are struggling with their own choices, and hunger for validation. They get this validation by attacking those who choose differently; on the flip side, this person is also quick to perceive attacks from others. This attitude is common in people who stay in bad relationships. They judge people who are single as losers because it comforts them to think their relationship status protects them from loserdom. They also feel attacked when people encourage them to get out of their relationships.
We could very well be talking about the religion vs atheism divide.
I disagree with both of these angles. Determining what position makes society better is a subjective thing. Child-rearing is a good thing, but so is burning the midnight oil to keep innocent people off death row. So is writing the next American novel or starting a successful business. So is being the kind of person who tells funny jokes in the grocery store line or helps little old ladies cross the street. Life ain’t a contest. We can all contribute to society without worrying about who is better at that.
Are there obnoxious jerks that look down their noses at childless people? Sure. Are they prevalent? I don’t think so.
Are there obnoxious jerks that hate kids and anybody that has them? Sure. Are they prevalent? I don’t think so either.
There are a lot of jerks of all sorts.
Just because a person is confused why intrusive clueless biddies bug them, does not mean they are reaching for some kind of martyr status. It just means a lot of people say whatever the hell thing that pops into their brain.
For example in the below a parent is commenting on strange things said about his baby. I’m pretty sure he’s not trying to be a victim. He’s just experiencing something both strange and tiresome.
Preach it.
I point out to the people who think I should have had children or that having children are essential that if I had had kids I would not have been able to move in with my parents during my mother’s final days, allowing her to die at home as she wished. Throughout history the childless have contributed as aunts and uncles and as child care-givers to elderly parents. Not to mention all the childless teachers (that used to be a requirement for the job in some times and places!) and other roles taken on by those without children.
It’s remarkable how after that I got admiration and told I was such a responsible person and knew what it was to self-sacrifice, etc. etc. just as if I had been a parent. Well, folks, I had all those qualities beforehand, they didn’t get magicked up when mom was dying, it’s just that those people simply didn’t see those qualities in someone without kids.
Which is not to say this comes up often, it’s doesn’t. Maybe a handful of times.