SPECTRE - Bond film.

I feel I need to balance out the criticism (some of which I provided).

After several days of digesting this movie, I still rank it second of the Craig films (CR, Spectre, AQoS and waaaay down, Skyfall) and probably still in the top ten overall, but maybe at 10.

It’s not THAT stupid, and most of the usual Bond stupidity didn’t bother me until afterwards. Skyfall made me mad during the movie.

Skyfall’s faults are of logic, Spectre’s are of execution (or, in the case of Mr. Hinx, lack of execution! :slight_smile: )

I thought the bomb that was supposed to go to the stadium was in the building.

Or, at least I need to believe that. Otherwise, it makes no sense.

Bond’s bullets are mini-nukes. He shoots anything and boom!

I’m with you, but I would like to hear you rant. Why don’t you like Skyfall?

Good question.

All this time, I assumed Bond’s bullet accidentally hit something explosive?

My complaints come first from Silva’s plan. His ultimate goal is revenge against M. So first he sets up an assassination that Bond can stop, but with enough evidence that Bond can follow to the point he seduces a woman (who is savvy, and is Silva’s woman, so she should know better) and then Bond gets taken to a remote island (without being killed along the way). Then Silva captures Bond, having people shooting at him but somehow not killing him. The Silva allows himself to be captured (but not killed) and taken in chains to where he wants to go. Then his plan entails Q attaching Silva’s computers to the main system, where the hidden spyware knocks out MI-6 systems and allows Silva to escape, killing incompetent guards and stealing their weapons (but not be shot by any competent guards working that day) just far enough ahead of Bond so that he can taunt him, and then drop a subway train on his head, but not let Bond shoot him. He then has a perfectly timed plan with a bunch of henchmen in police uniforms provide him with the tools needed to get inside the building where Q is testifying before her superiors, where Silva can then shoot her.

The plan relies on everyone else doing exactly one and only one thing at every step. If Bond had been not quite as clever at escaping on the island, or had shot Silva, or if some henchman had shot him, or if Q had not done THE most incredibly stupid thing and hooked an unknown computer directly into the network, then the plan would not have worked. It isn’t like a plan where there is room for adjustment as it progresses, “if Bond does A, I do B-C, but if Bond doesn’t do A, I do J-K.” What is the alternate plan? If Q doesn’t hook the computer to the network, opening the cell doors, Silva’s plan is…what? Rot in jail?

Silva would have been better served by skipping over the whole “get captured” thing and do his assault on the hearing room directly.

So then, after Bond successfully foils the killing, he realizes that Silva has access to all MI-6 data, so he takes M “off grid” in the old, unbugged Aston Martin, and drives up to his old home, an isolated Scottish estate, while having Q leave just enough breadcrumbs so that Silva can follow (but not too close), where Bond’s plan is…kill them with shotguns? (yes, the weapons he expected were gone, but he never had enough to fight off an armed assault team anyway. With or without a helicopter.)

I thought the whole plan would be that Bond leaves a trail for Silva to follow, but it is a trap, and instead of Bond and M isolated at the estate, a fully armed MI-6 team would close the trap and capture/kill all the baddies. THAT would have made sense.

And then, finally, after surviving an assault that would have wiped out a trained military platoon, M and the gamekeeper run off into the night to hide from a (somehow still alive) Silva. But do they use stealth? Nope, they use the brightest flashlight commercially available to give away their position to anyone following them, and then M is left unguarded in the middle of the room just asking to get shot. To which Silva obliges her.

The core of the film makes no sense. Why would anyone do it that way?

Plus, Bond is a pouty baby for the first half of the film. He really is out of shape (pathetically so) yet doesn’t admit it, even to himself. And why? Because Moneypenny shot him? He could hear the chatter on his earpiece. He knew M was telling her to take the shot. He should have ducked (and truly, Moneypenny should have just shot them both).

The movie is not without its good points. But for sheer illogical plot, it’s near the top of the list, with Goldfinger, Diamonds Are Forever, You Only Live Twice or even Moonraker (in the latter, Drax’s plan was to kill every last man, woman and child on the planet, so that’s kind of a special case).

Well, yeah, when you put it like that, I guess it really did suck.

Come to think of it, this scene also left me wanting. Nothing should look accidental in a 007 movie. Right after he shoots the two in the room, the explosion occurs. Bond seems surprised - he clearly was not counting on the building falling on his sniper position. OK.

I was again thinking this is foreshadowing for something that will be revealed later in the movie, like maybe the bombers were targets of someone else - but it was never explained. Perhaps Just Asking Questions has it in that he shot the bomb intended for the stadium.

Additionally - an explosion and building collapse just blocks from a major parade, and the party just keeps rocking and no one skips a beat?

:slight_smile:

He did ask!

The world in Bond is not our universe. Everything it is is made from high explosives. Hotels, cars, buildings. C4 is the universal choice for building material, and gasoline is used as a refrigerant.

Hey, we’re partying here! Don’t harsh my buzz!

The movie is full of that. Massive fight on the train, destroying several cars, causing thousands of dollars in damages, and no one cares. At least in From Russia With Love, the fight was contained in one compartment. It was probably easy to cover up - money changed hands, bodies were quietly removed. Probably no paying passengers even noticed.

It’s not the only show to ignore fallout. The Miami of Burn Notice must be one scary place to live, what with cars randomly exploding on a daily basis, and buildings blowing up all over town.

I keep wondering why the train manufacturer made the compartment walls out of Balsa wood…

Budget cuts.

Anyway, so blonde woman says “Goodbye, James,” and walks away just as Bond and M and Moneypenny and Q get into their cars to drive to the whatever. Along the way, Bond and M get T-boned and Bond gets grabbed, dragged to the whatever, which has been elaborately rigged with explosives and photographs and fastidiously clean bulletproof glass partitions, and blonde woman is already there and tied up…
How did she get there ahead of Bond? Was the plan contingent on her last-minute decision to walk away from Bond? Were the bad guys watching the safe-house all along (I assume they’d have to have been in order to perfectly execute that mid-tunnel car crash) and opportunistically grabbed her as soon as Bond and friends drove off? Was there a lengthy gap somewhere along the way that I missed, because otherwise the action looks more-or-less continuous, leaving open the mechanical question of when and how she was grabbed, transported, restrained and wired to explode.

Even by Bond standards, this movie is nonsensical.

Nonsensical, yes. But by Bond standards? Exactly how many Bond movies have you seen? :wink:

I was kind of agreeing with your takedown of Skyfall until your list of illogical plots, which made me think of all the other ones: The Man with the Golden Gun, Octopussy, A View to a Kill, Tomorrow Never Dies, GoldenEye, Die Another Day

The list of ridiculous Bond plots is long; the list of Bond movies that could fairly be described as “sensical” is short and might start and end with Casino Royale.

And a basket of Easter Eggs is riveting the way a Where’s Waldo book is. Sure might be fun for a few Bond geeks who get a little “I get the reference! All these regular schlubs don’t!” thrill for a moment, but speaking as the regular schlub, even catching a few did not excite.

Re Skyfall. Yup it too was completely irrational illogical implausible Bond movie … but it had a some interesting relationships and interesting characters going on. There was a sense of the tragic, of Bond realizing that he was as much as anyone else a disposable tool, and finally accepting that as his fate, as his place … at least to my experience of the movie. Once again I can ignore the lack of logic and the implausibility if it delivers on that or on humor along with the expected ride of great action in exotic locations.

Really. If we’re going to just start making fun of Bond Movie Tropes, (a) we’ll be here all day and (b) Mike Meyers did that already.

Your review is actually spot on.

All of them, except for the 1967 Casino Royale which I’ve never been able to tolerate for more than five minutes without suffering spontaneous bleeding from my eyes and ears.
I’m vaguely sure the name of the German man who pseudo-adopted the young orphan Bond comes from Fleming’s short story Octopussy, but I don’t have a copy handy to verify. In that story, the man was indeed murdered, but not by his own son. The killer was a corrupt British intelligence officer, basically a slightly-older version of Bond, whose story was altered and adapted as background for the film Octopussy.

Well, I get that it’s a longstanding trope that the bad guy can’t just kill Bond outright but instead must explain all his plans and then put him in an easily-escapable deathtrap of some kind with only one inept guard, but in this movie and Skyfall (where the target was M), it’s gotten pretty out of hand. How do these people run their operations when they invest such ridiculous quantities of manpower and money in these cat-and-mouse games? Do they train their henchmen to deliberate shoot around Bond so we get lots of near-miss ricochets off the walls and floors, because the actual plan is to keep him alive for the final-reel gloatfest? What happens if a henchman accidentally kills Bond? No Christmas bonus?

By the way, did the white cat die in the lair mega-kasplosion? I find he’s the only character I can bring myself to care about.

I have to defend Octopussy. It’s one of my favorites, so I’m slightly biased, but I think the plot makes sense.

The overall plan is for the rogue Russian general Orlov to explode a nuclear device on a US Airbase in Germany. This would cause public sentiment to demand the removal of US nukes from Germany, leaving it open for a Soviet invasion, and the greater glory of the motherland. And probably end up with Orlov in the premier’s seat. It’s actually not a bad plan, as megalomaniacal plans go.

To fund this plan, Orlov stole treasures from the government, substituting fakes. This was going well, until there was going to be an audit, and the originals had to be replaced. Agent 009 found one of the fakes and was killed, thus starting the movie.

Bond is more like a detective in this one. At the start, neither he nor M have any idea what is really going on. Bond just follows the clues, from the egg, to Kamal Khan, to Orlov, to Octopussy, and to the circus, which leads him to the airbase and the bomb. Simple! :slight_smile:

In Spectre, was it C that chastises Bond for being an antique, an assassin in a world that doesn’t need them? I think that’s an unfair description of what double-ohs do. They’re more like troubleshooters, fixers, clean up men. When something is wrong, 00s make it right again. Has Bond been just an assassin in any movie, really? That statement in the movie is as wrong as Bloefeld claiming that he is responsible for the deaths of Vesper and M, but I think they are wrong because the writers are trying to fool the audience more than the characters are wrong, or lying.

Ironically, there’s LICENSE TO KILL, where Bond simply decides that a guy needs to stop breathing, and Her Majesty’s Secret Service tells him ‘no’, and Bond clarifies that, no, see, I get that you tell me what to do, and I kill people, but you seem to think there’s a causal relationship; thing is, though, I do as I see fit, and it usually just happens to be what you wanted. All apologies for any confusion.

Bond then goes on a mission to kill the guy. Bond then kills the guy. The end.