Speeding fines and tickets

There’s been a lot of workup, rage, psuedo-rage, and irritation in the Pit recently (not links; it’s not worth reading, frankly) over that perennial fly in the soup of our nation’s driving habits, Speeding Tickets. There’ve been half-hearted defenses of speeding, whole-hearted advocates of police revenue generaion, and generally a mishmash of pointless jabber.

I believe that the police should enforce speeding tickets strictly AND that the speed limits are set too low. They ought to be set at a strict, real limit of 75-80 miles, with the expectation that people will obey the limit. Currently, in most of th country we have a “wink-nudge” system, where almost everybody goes 5-15 miles over the speed limit and the cops usually don’t hassle us. Come to Knoxville for example. Nobody’s actualy driving the listed 55 MPH Interstate limit unless traffic is heavy. OTOH, serious accidents are pretty rare there, and those which occur are rarely due to actual speeding. Rather, it’s idiots not paying attention, tailgating, or otherwise engaging in risky behavior.

Currently, in Knoxville (and every city I’ve ever visited) nobody actually obeys the speed limit laws. This tells me pretty clearly that the laws are outdated and do not functionally exist for all intents and purposes. Nor can there be any moral rule which requires we drive only 55 instead of 65.

Therefore, we logically need to update our highway speed limits to match what people obviously believe and do. Highway speeding is an issue to manage, not a problem to be solved. People like speed. We should assume that and set up a highway system which can tolerate that.

A graduated-lane system might be a good bet, where you’re expected to try and move up to a higher speed in the lft lane, but right lanes are limited to a lower speed for the faint-of-heart. Currently that’s a reccomended but “unofficial” rule. You’re supposed to “drive slower” in the right lanes, but wink-nudge go no more than the speed limit in any of them.

There’s a lot of different speed laws across the country, but I can’t say I’ve ever been on a stretch of road where nearly everyone does the speed limit. Whether it is a 75 mph stretch out in the desert or 25 mph right outside my house, I think 90% of drivers proceed with the rule of thumb that whatever the speed limit is, we can always go 5 to 10 mph faster because we’ll get there faster, everyone does it, I’ve got to keep up with everyone, and the cops can’t catch us all.

There’s some hardcore speeders out there, but I’d bet raising speed limits to match the current flow of traffic will tend to raise the current driving speeds by about that much again.

Yes, it’s a screwed up system that creates a system that the police can pull you over for doing really nothing wrong as the speed limits are set too low, and they are set up with it in mind that people will excede them by 15 mph or so.

The solution that I propose is post the enforcement tollerence along with the speed limit. This way there is no question as to how fast you can go, but leaves no excuses for exceeding it by even 1 mph. It would also serve to have traffic move at a more consistent speed.

Um, I defy the OP to establish how to set a speed limit that will be strictly enforced. The reason speed limits are not obeyed isn’t because they are so low. This is amply demonstrated by the fact that, back when the national speed limit on highways was 55, there wasn’t really any significantly larger number of people who “sped” than there are now, with speed limits that go as high as 75 in many places. Drive through Nebraska, for example, on the I-80, at 75 mph, and you’ll be passed regularly, pass almost no car, and be quite convinced you could do 80 and be in no trouble.

So no matter what limit you set, people will drive faster than the limit, unless you set the limit so high that it no longer limits people because they will drive slower for safety reasons.

Second, I defy to OP to support with statistics the claim that, in Knoxville (or anywhere else for that matter), speed is not a primary cause of accidents on the highways/freeways. Speed, according to most experts, is always the #1 cause of accidents, if not the sole cause, then the main contributing factor. Speed shortens accident-avoidance reaction times, decreases the ability of the car to handle (by reducing the ability of friction between the tires and the road to overcome the inertia of forward momentum), and increases the force of impact when accidents occur. As a nation, accident statistics almost always go up when speed limits are increased, as one would expect. We would ALWAYS be safer if we went slower as a whole.

Thirdly, contrary to the assertion in the OP, failure to obey the law is immoral, with the sole possible exception being when one can articulate a reason why the law in question is itself amoral (such as refusing to get off a “white’s only” bus in the 50’s). When you live in a society, you are accepting as a benefit of that society the advantages we obtain through cooperation and sharing. In return, we must be willing to abide by the rules that society sets, else those benefits will disappear. A society that ignores its laws becomes lawless; a lawless society loses many of the advantages of being a society. Thus, moral behavior includes respecting the dictates of the society in which you choose to live.

So, then, why the trouble? Because most drivers do not view speed limits as morally necessary. Much like tax laws, copyright issues, and other such legal areas where we do not routinely see or think about a class of “victims,” drivers don’t think of speed limits as something that protects themselves, or society as a whole. Instead, they view speed limits as personal limitations existing for no particularly important reason. Thus, when driving to work in the morning, or home at night, or to the beach for the day, or just to the store for some milk, it doesn’t seem very crucial that my speed be matched to some seemingly arbitrary limit. It’s far more important that I complete my journey quickly. If I give the limit thought, it’s solely because I am worried that that curve ahead may hide an officer of the law, who might nail me for my failure to obey the law. Note that most people don’t keep themselves from killing people, or stealing from banks, on the basis that they are worried about being caught.

It’s not clear if this is a particularly American or Euro-American thing. I do know that, when living in relatively rural California, if I found myself behind a driver going slower than the limit, that driver was often hispanic. This seems to have tied in with a somewhat more laid-back lifestyle, in which go go go was not so important. Similarly, in urban California, slower drivers on the freeways were often Asian appearing, which, again, seemed to tie in with a generally more “careful” approach to life in general, in which rules are more respected. So the whole break the speed limit thing may be a reflection at some level of our own, cultural tendencies, which are well known to be viewed by many in the world as fast-paced and self-thinking.

In short, changing the limits has no really important impact on the tendency to speed; people speed whatever the limit. Speed DOES kill, maim, etc.; that is, it is a major contributory factor in most accidents, as well as in the severity of the injuries suffered in the accidents. Moral people should view speed limits, like any other law, as important to follow, but do not, perhaps because they don’t equate these laws with some morally important behavior (there was no eleventh commandment stating, Thou shalt not to to fast). In any event, whether culturally related or not, speed limits in America are always going to be “ingnored” the same way they currently are, and short of creating some sort of vastly better method for determining who is speeding, and punishing them for it, it’s unlikely to change.

:rolleyes:

Agree with the OP in every respect, except that 75 is probably too high on most city streets, even some city freeways.

I also agree with the assertion that people speed no matter what the limit is. That’s where the “strict enforcement” comes in. There should be no 5-10 mph gray area where cops wink and nudge you. If the speed limit is 65, you should be prepared to pay a ticket for going 66. On the other hand, a lot of speed limit zones are set unreasonably low. Set the limits where they ought to be, stop trying to generate revenue with speed limits, and bust anyone who breaks the law. It should be simple.

Enforcement technology is much better now than when the freeways were 55 limit. Photo radar will pay for itself in the first year of any road it’s installed on.

It recently occurred to me that the 10 MPH lenience usually given might simply be a buffer for the accuracy of radar guns and/or people’s spedometers. I believe a radar gun is accurate to +/- 3 MPH; I have no idea what the accuracy of a standard spedometer is.

I don’t know if that’s actually the case, but it sure makes it more difficult to contest a ticket.

It is not immoral to break some arbitrary rule that assumes you have no brain to think with. How long would you sit at a red light waiting for it to turn green when the only car on the road in any direction is yours? 5 minutes later the light is still red. Is the light broken, or will it eventually turn green? Or is your car stuck at this light until it rusts away? I think there is a movable line between immoral (breaking a minor traffic law) and the rational (waiting forever for an obstinate light) depending on the circumstance.

UZI,
It is my sad understanding that police enforce the letter of the law,not the spirit thereof,hence,no “movable line”.

I agree with everything the OP stated. I would like to have an addendum: left lanes are for speedier motorists and for passing. They ARE NOT for cruising, if you are going to cruise, please do so in the right lane.

I STRONGLY feel states need to start MANDATING this issue, police need to start pulling people over (or at least make it an offense worthy of being pulled over) and motorists need to start making a conscious effort to use the proper lanes.

The trouble with this analysis (used consistently by those who argue there is nothing wrong with violating speed limits) is that you cannot easily draw a line to say what laws should be able to be violated this way, and what laws should not. After all, people who intentionally break a law always have some justification in their mind as to why it shouldn’t matter in their case. Once you start down that slope, there’s no easy end to the slip-and-slide. So what do you say to the person who refuses to pay taxes, and justifies it on the basis that tax laws are all about robbing the rich to pay the lazy poor anyway? Or the person who asserts that there is nothing at all wrong with violating copyrights because he wouldn’t have bought the stuff anyway if he had had to pay for it? Or the person who burns yard waste whenever he wants because, hey, the air looks clear enough and that breeze isn’t enough to blow HIS carefully tended pile over!

And common sense tells you that a light doesn’t just stay red; eventually it turns green. So you aren’t waiting 5 minutes, your waiting like 90 seconds and yes, that often seems an eternity when stuck at a light, but, hey, it’s just 90 seconds. You really can afford to sit there that long.

If you were really, truly able to conclude that the light was not working properly, then your sense of worry at violating the law might well be mitigated by that fact. Of course, if the light is broken, you could always simply turn right on red and then flip a U and either make another right or proceed straight as needed. :wink:

But first of all, photo radar has both practical and constitutional issues, and second of all, you can’t put it everywhere. I-80 through Nebraska has something like 400 miles of open, uncluttered, 75 mph limited driving space. Are you going to photo radar the whole thing? What parts will you photo radar, and what parts won’t you? And can you imagine the expense if we tried to make it truly massive in scope?

Plus, frankly, if we DID manage to come up with a way to effectively force people to maintain a speed limit, then why not do so NOW, and enforce the ones we have? As has been pointed out, people drive over the speed limit not because they think they are too low, but because they are always willing to go faster and they don’t think they are at great risk of being caught. With an effective system, one that truly forced drivers to do what the limit says, we could simply leave the limits as they are, people would drive within them, and the whole rationale for the OP would go up in smoke. :wink:

What evidence do you have that speed limits are held artificially low for revenue purposes (outside of a very few small municipalities)? This is a common misconception among those who advocate higher speeds. Proffer up some solid evidence of this, please.

And you can’t simply write tickets for 66 in a 65 zone; there would be many thrown out for inability to establish beyond a reasonable doubt that the offender actually was violating the law. There is always a margin of error that has to be respected. As a general rule, this is factored into the decisions on limit setting; thus, if you really want people to do 65, you set the limit at 60, knowing that the effective enforceable limit is 65.

Apparently you were out sick when Mallum en se and Mallum Prohibitum were discussed.

**Honesty ** said it best…

Yet if it was a stop sign you could go when you determined it was safe. Just because it is a stop light instead of a stop sign you are stuck there against all common sense.

I’m not saying that anyone should just go when they feel like it, but I don’t see the immorality of waiting when there is absolutely no reason for it. The same goes for something like jaywalking. If there are absolutely positively no cars on the road, then I’m crossing. I am not walking down to the end of the block and then back again unless there is a good reason to do so eg. traffic. The intent of the law is to protect people and not affect traffic. If I don’t do either then why would I be immoral for breaking that bylaw?

Assuming there is a right turn to make. A “T” intersection has no right turn available from one direction. Some red lights are for crosswalks where no turn is available.

Over the last 25+ years I’ve used radar/laser guns, most of them (per their operations manual) have claimed to be +/- 4 mph. I think one claimed +/- 2, but I forget which.

But, at least around here, that isn’t what dictates how much over the limit the police allow traffic to go. It’s the circuit & municipal judges. Regardles of congestion, weather, or road conditions, the judge simply isn’t going to convict an exceeding cite unless it’s a certain amount over the limit. The purpose of that is so the courts don’t get clogged up with radar trials. People tend to fight expensive tickets that were written for just a few miles over.

If I write a ticket, say, just for examply, for 12 or less over the limit hint, hint, the D.A. isn’t going to issue on it because he knows a judge will toss it. So why would I write a cite I know isn’t going anywhere? Doing that more than once is a way for the judge, the D.A. and your supervisors to get pissed at you.

I disagree with the whole simplistic “speed=death” equation. Yes, speed often is the #1 aggravating factor in an accident, but it isn’t the main “cause” very often. The main causes in my view are inattentiveness/lack of situational awareness, use of distracting devices (cell phones, stereo), and outright reckless driving (weaving around cars like a maniac). Add high speed on top of one of these factors and injuries/damage are that much worse, but speed isn’t the main cause of wrecks.

Speed is dangerous when you have exceeded your comfort zone and your car’s ability to get out of danger (via braking, swerving suddenly, or yes even accelerating). People usually have no idea how to handle their car when a sudden emergency does come up, because they’ve never had to skillfully handle their car when it is at the limit. My niece and nephew will both be beneficiaries of a high-performance street driving course when they reach the legal age.

I mean look at the autobahn, where speeds are very high but the accident rate is no worse than it is here, precisely because drivers in Germany aren’t farting around with their cell phones at 120 MPH, chatting and laughing (turning around) at their bozo friend in the back seat, driving casually with one hand on top of the steering wheel, etc. Yeah when they do get in a wreck it often is very bad, but they don’t treat driving as casually as Americans do.

It is the law in many places. For instance, Illinois law says

And I’m going to have to disagree with the OP. While there are places that the speed limit ought to be raised, and places where it ought to be more strictly enforced, I think that, in general, the current “system” works about as well as any alternative would.

One objection I have to the OP (in addition to those already mentioned by other posters) is that the maximum safe speed is not the same for everyone at all times. It depends on weather, traffic density, road conditions, visibility, what kind of vehicle you’re driving, and other factors. If you set a high speed limit and strictly enforce it, you’re also going to have to strictly enforce “driving too fast for conditions.”

If you set the speed limit to the maximum safe speed under optimal conditions, I guarantee you’ll get people driving that fast when conditions aren’t optimal. And if you set it lower, people are going to want to speed when conditions are optimal, and it’s hard to blame them.