Well, that’s an awfully negative outlook there.
Yeah, most countries are more eager to beat the US then any other nation (assuming group level, not second round). But that’s because you don’t want to lose to the Nation That Doesn’t Care About Soccer - not because we hate the US. Well, I don’t know, maybe if Iraq had qualified… 
And who knows, with a US team that does well, maybe “soccer” will finally pick up?
It’s nonsense anyway. Poland are a very talented side that underperformed in their first two games. IIRC they were the first to qualify in the European (i.e. toughest) group and did so without losing.
I firmly believed Poland would win before the world cup and a still did so this morning. One bad loss to a world-class side (Portugal) and one loss to the home team doesn’t make you “a bad team, an untalented team, a team with very litte heart or character”. And they proved that today.
I’m afraid that all you did with that post, astorian, is prove that you really don’t know anything about football.
In footballing terms, nobody gives a shit about the US. You know who they want to beat, who everybody hates? The Germans. And after that, the Argentinians, the French, the English. And who do they raise their games for? The Brazilians. If anything, teams tend to underperform against the US - witness Portugal in the first half hour or so in their game.
Frankly, you just sound a bit ridiculous.
pan
astorian’s post comfortably proves the assertion he makes in its first sentence.
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I don’t mean to piss on everybody’s “Yay, we advanced!” party. I’m happy about it too.
But if Bruce Arena starts Jeff Agoos against Mexico, I don’t think he should be allowed back into the country.
And I’m sick of all the media parsing on the subject, “Now, it’s unfair to blame just one player;” “Anybody who thinks the US side would be better off without Agoos doesn’t understand soccer,” etc.
Whatever. My eyes don’t lie. Let’s look at a replay of every goal scored against the US in this tournament. Or every play that resulted in Friedel having to make an amazing save.
I think you’ll denote a pattern - a certain slow player getting whipped like a bowl of cream. Who is useless against a player in the air.
The US is Arab-esque in its inability to stop set pieces and headers. It’s embarrassing.
A similar effort on Monday, and Mexico is going to stomp our guts out.
All that said, GO USA! 
I agree, if we play like we did today, Mexico will soundly put us down.
That said, I don’t think we’ll play like we did today. Like I said previously, I think we were a little arrogant coming in today and we’ve been notched down a lot. (arrogance-- its the american way.)
Mexico is a team we’ve played and beaten, and have been beaten by. I suspect a good game. Arena will kick some a** in the lockerroom today and get our guys to pull their heads out and play some football.
Whether we’ll win-- I don’t know. I suspect a good game, final score of 2-1 for… heck, I don’t know… I’ll say the Americans so that if they win I’ll be the guy who can say I predicted it.
Nota bene: my point wasn’t that the rest of the world hates the U.S. soccer team, per se. Fact is, the U.S. soccer team isn’t good enough to be worth hating.
No, my point was socio-political. The world hates us Yanks, period. To a Euro, an Asian, or a Latin American, stomping a U.S. team on a soccer field is the next best thing to spitting in George W. Bush’s face, or burning an American flag.
That was OBVIOUS, from the way the South Koreans revelled in their tie against the U.S. team. NOBODY in the U.S. has thought about Apollo Ohno since the Winter Olympics ended, but it’s clear that the Koreans have thought of little else. The Koreans hate the U.S. so much, they’ve spent months re-hashing a questionable ruling at the Winter Olympics. When the Korean team played against the U.S. team, the Koreans clearly thought a lot more than a football game was at stake.
In theory, beating a perennial powerhouse like Brazil should be a much greater honor than beating a mediocre team like the U.S. But does anyone doubt that, in reality, Koreans would rather beat the U.S. than win the World Cup outright?
And Koreans aren’t unique in their dislike of the U.S. - they’re simply more vocal about it. Sure, on a purely sporting level, beating Germany or Italy would be a MUCH greater accomplishment than whipping the U.S., but fans all over the world would get a bigger thrill from beating the U.S.
This analogy will mean nothing to Europeans, but American football fans will grasp my meaning. Suppose that the final game of the NFL regular season pits the Dallas Cowboys (who are 8-7) against the Detroit Lions (who are 1-14). The Cowboys will get the last wild card slot if they win the game. The Lions, of course, have no chance of making the playoffs. For all practical purposes, the Lions’ season ended months ago.
So, the Cowboys have EVERYTHING to gain by winning, while the Lions have NOTHING to gain by winning (heck, they might even LOSE a high draft pick by winning). Logically, you’d expect the Cowboys to win handily, right? Well… I dunno.
If it were ANY 8-7 team besides the Dallas Cowboys, I know the Lions would roll over and die, take their 49-0 whipping, and go home. But against the Cowboys? I’d expect the Lions to work up a healthy hatred of “America’s Team,” and come out firing. That’s because emotion plays a HUGE role in sport, especially in games that don’t seem to matter much. I’d expect the Lions to put up a fight, and maybe even to win, because it would give them huge satisfaction to beat the Cowboys (even though Tom Landry and Roger Staubach are loooooong gone, and the current Cowboys are so-so, at best).
Well, beating a weak U.S. soccer squad carries that same kind of satisfaction. Even a soccer team with no hope of advancing thinks, “No way are we going to lose to those damn Americans!”
I don’t know much about soccer, but I still say the 20 bucks in my pocket shows that I DO understand politics and human nature.
We understood your point in the first place. Unfortunately it doesn’t necessarily relate to football in general, and to the Polish in particular. I know that people in some countries (especially the poorer countries of the world) resent the US. I know that Bin Laden T shirts were on sale in downtown Douala, f’rexample. (because a mate of mine working in Cameroon said so) But Europe? Yes, some people in Europe occasionally get mildly ticked by US “cultural domination” (but the majority vote with their feet for Mcdonalds etc) and some people are somewhat more annoyed by the refusal to adopt the protocols of the Kyoto treaty. HOWEVER, this does not add up to hating the US. I’m actually a little bit insulted by your statement that “To a Euro, an Asian, or a Latin American, stomping a U.S. team on a soccer field is the next best thing to spitting in George W. Bush’s face, or burning an American flag.” To a “Euro”?
Look. Your analogy actually slightly goes against your point. People want their soccer team to beat soccer teams with whom they have a needle. Being glad that England beat Argentina is as much if not more about Maradona’s “hand of God” in 86 and Diego Simeone getting David Beckham sent off in 98 than it is about the bloody Falklands war.
Be careful that you don’t extend your one explanation of Polish too thinly. “Everyone hates the USA” is far too much of a generalisation, and it entirely discounts any other potential explanations (such as Jerzy Dudek coming out and saying they wanted to win to get South Korea through as a thankyou to South Korea for giving them such a great reception, such as the fact that teams who have gone out and have nothign to lose often play damn well because they have nothign to lose and because it’s great to get something out of the tournament)
But, if you’re determined to believe that everyone in the continent where I live hates your nation, then go ahead, I can’t stop you. If it makes you happy.
astorian, “the world” does not hate “you Yanks”. If you truly believe that, a few corrections in a thread about football are not going to help you. The next best thing to burning an American flag? Whut the hell?
Perhaps you underestimate the immense popularity of short track skating in South Korea, or perhaps you’re not familiar with goal scoring celebrations in football - they often are used to get a point across, be it humourous or political. Don’t read hatred into it. That’s ridiculous.
Why, yes. I’d say anyone with a little knowledge about football would doubt that, nay, would call it an outrageous assumption. See, it assumes that there are political goals that are more important than winning the world cup. To a football player playing at the world cup, nothing is more important than winning that friggin’ cup. Trust me, from the poorest Senegalese defender to the highest paid Brazilian primadonna, they all have one common goal: GET TO THE TOP - BEAT THEM ALL. They’d sell their own mothers to obtain the world title.
There is no participating team in the current world cup that would value a single victory over the US higher than winning the tournament outright. NONE. Nor will there ever be such a team.
Utter nonsense. The highest attainable goal in international football is beating a world class team. Currenty, examples would include Brazil, Italy, Germany, Argentina, and England. The US is not in that list yet. Period.
I know nothing about American Football. Therefore, I won’t comment on your analogy.
See how easy that was?
Yeah, but for different reasons than the ones you mention. Losing to the US is (or at least was, until two weeks ago) considered an outrage, a shame to a European or South American squad. Because the US team is not known for its world class skill!
It’s like losing to, say, Luxemburg, or San Marino. It’s just not done. And it’s completely unrelated to politics.
Do me a favour: never run for office.
In fact I doubt this considerably.
And considering your football analogy, it would only make sense if generally no one cared about the Dallas Cowboys. I mean how can S. Korea get some sort of ulterior satisfaction out of beating the US if most Americans couldn’t care less about what happens?
I’ll take that bet.
Astorian, you don’t know much. “Heart” and “Character” are two of the things the Polish team are historically known for. Just as Brazil is thought of as having great individual skill, Germany thought of as great teamwork, I think the Polish have always had the reputation of never giving up. They always seem to win the “third place” games at the end of the tournament - a game that means little. They play for pride no matter who the opponent.
They did, however, desperately want to beat the US today. This has less to do with the US being the US as the Poles absolutely refusing to go home with three losses. Shoot, if they went home with three straight losses their families might disinheret them.
Yes you do! Admit it, Clog Boy! You hate us, you hate us all! 
Wow, celebrate a game and a political fight breaks out. What is this, Hockey?
Thoughts on today’s results:
Jeff Agoos is a liability in central defense. The US played better at the back with Agoos out and formed 3-5-2. One hopes that the “injury”, whatever it was, keeps him out of the game against Mexico. I do like the fact, though, that Tommy Smyth, doing commentary for the Portugal v Korea game, noted that there is a dearth of really good central defenders in the world, period. We’re not the only nation with trouble there.
The US got caught by its strategy, and punished properly. We had approached our games with the idea of scoring early, and, preferably, often. The assumption was that the opposing team would do much as Portugal DID do, that is, lay back and slowly start looking for seams to attack. Poland simply decided to take the game to us right off the mark, and we weren’t ready for it. We weren’t properly set up for the corner kick, and we were caught getting back to slowly on the second goal. The concept of surprising a team with a sudden offensive display right off the whistle may work when it isn’t suspected, but after a while, you had better start trying something else. And we should have expected Poland to come out firing. Not for the stupid asserted socio-political reasons discussed above (damn ignorant Americans who form their opinions without travelling around the world based solely on what they choose to take from nightly newscasts). No, Poland had some good football reasons to come out strong. Among them, the fact that they were embarrassed in their first two games and needed to prove to the hometown folks they weren’t quitters, the fact that five of the players in the lineup hadn’t played a single minute of the first two games, and wanted to prove they should have been in them, the fact that players from Poland need good World Cup tournament showings to help increase their value in the transfer market, etc.
Korea are a really good team. It’s scary to think what would happen if they could actually finish attacks…
What in the WORLD were Portugal thinking? A 0-0 tie and it’s on to face Mexico, and the Koreans are starting to ramp down their attacking and BAM, a player sent off? Then, inexplicably, when Korea have practically taken the air out of the ball, only making sporadic forays into the Portugese end, a SECOND red??? I mean, talk about brain death…
Ok, now we had our comuppance, and we’ve been properly chastised. Now it’s time to establish that we can rise to do or die occaisions. Mexico are playing well, but we’ve beaten them, we know it, they know it, now we have to do it.
Brad Friedel is the best goalkeeper on the planet, period.
OK, I want to know who was the fuckwit at RTÉ who decided to show the exact same game that ITV were showing. Which wasn’t ours. So I took a whole day off work for a game I didn’t even get to see. I was absolutely outraged about this at 12.30 today.
At 12.37 I was grateful.
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I really do have to hand it to the Koreans for making a game of it even when they must have found out soon enough that a dull 90-minute practice session would get them through. And to Hiddink - did anyone notice when the cameras cut to him just after Korea missed a chance when they were already up 1-0? His reaction showed pretty clearly that he wanted another goal, and not for them to sit back on their lead. Fair play to him.
As for Portugal, all I have to say is Joao Pinto was lucky he was just sent off and not arrested.
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Amen to that. Judging by the emails, jokes and humorous photos that have been sent my way from my Brazilian friends, they are happier that Argentina is out than how well Brazil is doing!
DSY:
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And my fear is, the U.S. can’t play a different game effectively. At least not at this point in their evolution.
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I think they are going to upset Italy.
I thought it quite discouraging before the game that the players and Arena all said that they had to play for the win, because they didn’t think they had the ability to play for a tie. Good teams adapt to the situation; the Americans need to learn that lesson.
Donovan “knocked over” a Polish defender who is half a foot taller and weighs about 50 pounds more. In other words the defender was beat and took a dive. This ref was horrible. Poland should have received at least two red cards, there was some real crap out of Poland, which is a pity because otherwise they played very well. BTW, did they show later on TV how a Polish defender knocked Donovan to the turf while the ball was out of play?
Okay, more ravings from a sleep deprived lunatic who was at the match. First, it’s a tad discouraging to go half way around the world and then see the stadiums filled with Koreans dressed as Poles and cheering wildly every time Poland touched the ball. The same thing happened in the Portugal game. Of course in the Korea game it was just rabid Koreans cheering for Korea, which is fine. It was annoying.
The game just felt like one of those games that gets away. The Poles were across the board bigger than the Americans (big Americans play other sports, not soccer, as a general rule). They definitely used this to their advantage. Having the goal disallowed really hurt. Besides the obvious loss of the point off of the board, it had them worrying about the ref instead of the Poles and Polska quickly struck for a second early goal.
Most of the rest of the game the USA dominated possession, but Poland dropped most of it’s players back on defense and occasionally counterattacked. Since, as said, they were bigger, they won most balls in the air in the last 20 yards of the field and most of these did not pose a credible threat. There were some missed opportunities, but I was frustrated with our lack of ability to use speed to our advantage. This was compounded by being down. Arena needs to find a different way to work against teams that are bigger.
Cobi Jones, who I am not thrilled with in general, did a very good job in setting up the lone goal. He was the only one who had a sense that they need to do something differently.
Poland committed a number of flagrant fouls and did some other stuff like diddling around to waste time. The ref did show Dudek a yellow for this, but since they were already eliminated a yellow was fairly meaningless. Some red should have come out to show the ref was serious.
After the games, there was a hell of a party in the streets of Daejeon. Outside of the stadium the Koreans were extemely friendly and we all chanted for both Korea and USA. When some Poles showed up at our bar we congratulated them and cheered for them. It was a great night although the game was definitely a disappointment. I just hope our side can remember how to beat Mexico, which I just read we’ve done in 4 of our last 5 meetings, but they are playing extremely well. And I think the Italians will have their hands full against the Koreans. They surely deserved to win the group. What a great goal that was by Park!
Just a quick thought on the disallowed “goal”.
Emphasis mine
Landon Donovan charged the Polish player from his side, knocking him over just as he was jumping to head the ball. Donovan charged the Pole so hard that he knocked him completely sideways to the ground. Unlike the typical dive, this wasn’t a situation where in slow motion you see the player leave his feet or fall down only after a delay following contact; the Pole was simply put on the ground.
In midfield, this might be allowed, with the referee not feeling that excessive force was used. In the penalty area, by and large, referees are much harsher about tactics used by offensive players to gain an advantage. Shirt pulls ignored at midfield get punished, jumping “at” a player gets called for the slightest variation from going straight up, etc. I don’t like it that way, and I don’t referee that way; to me, the same conduct should be punished regardless of location, which as you might imagine makes me a somewhat unpopular referee in some situations where players and coaches are used to the defenders getting a break in front of goal. But the fact is that almost all world-level referees adjudge fouls that way, and everyone in the game knows it.
Would I have whistled a foul on Donovan? I can’t honestly say, because I wasn’t there, didn’t see it from 10 yards away at full speed, and wasn’t the one who had a game plan for officiating the game. But I do know this: you can’t honestly blame a referee for considering that a player who has charged a guy much bigger than him hard enough to knock him on his ass sideways so that the player can have a free header from 6 yards has used “excessive force.” I’d say that call would go the same way from at least 8 of 10 referees doing World Cup games.
Would it have been a foul in Second Division English football? THAT’s another story alltogether…