Yeah, it’s partly that and partly just that It’s not ‘being English’ that I’m happy/proud about - it’s all the things that happen to make up ‘being English’ (as well as those that make up ‘being me’ and ‘being human’, ‘being alive’, etc) - and since I can appreciate all those things for what they are, putting them into one big category of ‘being English’ is at best redundant and at worst, a means of not actually thinking about them.
This, I believe (and am open to correction) is why sometimes people get shirty about patriotism, yet have trouble explaining their reasons for it - the category has become more important and prominent in their minds than its contents.
If patriotism can be explained to me, then it’s the explanation that means something to me. If it cannot be explained, it’s worthless.
You may not have noticed, through the red veil of your passion, that nowhere have I argued or even implied that you should not fly your flag - quite the contrary, in fact. What I don’t understand is why you think I should.
What I guess it boils down to is: please don’t tell me I should do something, unless you’re able and prepared to explain why it’s better that way.
I should eat more fibre, because it’s beneficial to the digestive system.
I should look both ways before crossing the road, because it may prevent me being hit by a car
I should fly a flag, because…
… there is a small spark inside of you that says, for whatever reason or purpose, “This is a symbol of something I am proud of, proud to represent and proud that it represents me!”. For some this is a small spark, for others (notably chowder) it is a roaring flame, the motivation and results are the same.
However if that spark is not there, if the idealism that the symbol represents does not represent you or your emotions concerning your heratige then you should absolutely not fly a flag. Doing so with empty intent is demeaning to the symbol itself.
Patriotism is only patriotism when it is achieved honestly, not when it is forced from within or coerced from without.
I fail to see how not wanting to fly a flag makes him somehow unpatriotic. For some of us symbols are unnecessary. To me (and I suspect ol’ Mangy too) flying an English flag in England is like painting your name on the inside of your car.
I wouldn’t have flown a flag if I was still in England, but that’s only because the only people I’ve seen do it are football yobbos and National Front types. Doesn’t mean I don’t put my hand on my heart for God Save the Queen or get a little warm and fuzzy when I hear Jerusalem, though.
No offense, chowder- I hate the American passion for sticking flags on everything with a passion, but if you want to fly a flag on St. George’s day or VE Day or Memorial Day or whenever the hell you feel like it then do so.
Yeah, I’m not averse to symbols at all - it’s just that with some forms of patriotism, there appears to be nothing but the symbol - that’s what freaks me right out - there’s this thing I should just have, and I’m terribly deficient for not having it, yet, when I ask for it to be explained to me, so that maybe I can have it too, those who already have it just get shirty and tell me I should just have it.
Oh that’s easy, you see there’s eleven guys per side, usually five linesmen, five backfield and a quarterback on the offence, five linesmen and six backfield on the defence. The center hikes an elliptical ball to the quarterback who tries, through a series of passing and running plays to advance the ball at least ten yards per four attempts with the overall goal of landing the ball somewhere in the end zone.
:: Ducks and runs out of the pub as an assortment of half eaten sausages, half empty cans of Guinness and half rotten turnips are thrown violently at him, while chowder shouts " ‘At’s it boys, drive his arse back to his own kind, bleedin’ colonists!"::
It would be un-English for the England football team to do well.
They’re supposed to arrive at the Euro Whateveryear or the World Cup as a top-three team, play boring but effective football for most of the tournament, then lose to the Germans on penalties.
Or the Portuguese.
Supporting England rugby is a much more satisfying hobby, IMHO. For one thing, they’ve won things in my lifetime, which neither the England football or cricket teams have managed.
Since when is winning things the point? As a Bolton Wanderers and England fan, I wouldn’t know how to feel if either team actually won. And yet I still follow them sigh
Well, it’s not like you’re hoping for them to lose, is it?
Anyway, one of my fondest memories is watching Liverpool play Bolton in the '95 Coca-Cola Cup final - Ian Rush’s last hurrah - and thinking how impressive it was that a First Division team had made it to the final.
Interesting point of discussion here, my smartassedness aside.
Perhaps the difference is no so much patriotism for patriotsms sake but for the sake of self identity.
The American flag I have on my car for example, expresses my patriotism for my country, but also my self identity. In a land of immigrants, both those who are temporary and those who are or wish to be permanant I hold my identity firm. However I can easily see how doing so might be seen as a form of predjudice via elitism or nationalism. I have no predjudice, and truly desire the well being and happyness of all cultures, but I also don’t want anyone to get the idea that I feel as if I am better than they are because of my birthright.
My display of the flag follows kind of a “Gang” mentality, these are my “Colors”. It expresses to others my affiliation and the values that I am willing to stand up and die for. For those of like values it expresses brotherhood and for those of differing standards it sets me apart as to what I will and will not tolerate. The flag expresses a part of my identity and an introduction to my values to strangers even though it does not throughly express the sum and total of my values and beliefs. This is why I fly my countries flag within my own country.
Recalling chowder’s previous thread about being a Ted gives some idea of how he may relate to this mentality. Those who have not experienced such a direct affiliation or fraternal connection may find that their point of view differs.
Perhaps this is a western point of view or perhaps it is limited to being an American point of view. Either way I feel it is set apart from the mere “Patriotism for Patriotisms sake” point of view.
Flags are cheery and nice. They brighten up the landscape and give a happy sense of place. I approve of the Scandinavian method of flag-waving–go to Denmark in the summer and you’ll see the streets festooned with flags. Birthday cakes have flags on them, as do Christmas trees, and you always fly your flag at your summerhouse. Yay!
So happy St. George’s day, and if I had a flag I’d fly it. I’ve been thinking of collecting flags to fly on the proper days, wouldn’t that be fun? I could have an Aussie or Kiwi flag for ANZAC day, and a French flag for July 14 (or would that be bad?), and all sorts of nice things.
Well I appear to have stirred up a teensy hornets nest here.
A couple of things: On my car I have 2 stickers, The Flag of England and The Star Spangled Banner.
Why the latter you may ask as the first needs no explanation. It’s quite simple, I love America, not as much as Merrie England, natch, but I love the place, the people and the grub, the beer is crap but you can’t have everything…right?
To my Bolton friend: I remember when Bolton beat Manure, I was at the match and cheered like fuck when Nat bundled Ray Wood into the net…this is me, a City fan cheering for Bolton
Quite obviously I also remember 1966 but I wasn’t able to get a ticket.
It’s hard to describe how I feel about my country. I look at it like this.
From the moment I was dragged kicking and screaming into this world I’ve been cared for, by my parents and by my country. I’ve wanted for very little, I guess I’ve had a lucky life.
When sick my country has cared for me, given me the medical attention I needed to cure whatever it was that ailed me.
This alone doesn’t make me such a fervent patriot, it’s something else, a feeling of being a citizen of a land that has given to the world so much, a feeling of pride, passion and most of all Englishness.
There is very little I’d give my life for but England is waaaay top of a very small list
Great analogy.
but I wasn’t able to get a ticket.