My scariest stall:
This is why, in my opinion, spins should be taught, and they should be taught at the same time as stalling (that’s pretty obvious, you can’t do spins without stalling.)
What ever you are doing in an aeroplane, if it all turns pear shaped, and assuming you have some altitude on your side, the worst that can happen is that you enter a spin. If you are capable at spin recovery then you’ll be fine.
The problem with spin recovery is that it is counter-intuitive. You appear to be spiraling into the ground so feel you should correct with aileron, but that will make things worse, you need to stop the roll/yaw with rudder, You are pointing down at the ground so you feel you should pull up, but you really need to lower the nose first to get the wings flying again. You got into the situation by being too slow so you feel you should have the power up, but until the spin is stopped, power will also make things worse.
The most important first step in spin recovery is to close the throttle, then apply opposite rudder and then lower the nose. It scares me to think that Marge was put into the situation she describes and it is a good thing that she was flying something forgiving enough to let her recover from a spin while leaving the power on. Some aircraft would’ve kept on spinning into the dirt unless you brought the power back.
Well done for getting out of that little predicament!
Public bathroom stalls aren’t scary, they’re gross. And there are slimy sweaty things breeding in there.
And thanks, OP, for having me curled up in the fetal position on the floor, shivering uncontrollably. My family wonders why I hate flying, anyways. :smack:
It’s accurate only up to a point because GA trainers from 1970 onward don’t really stop flying, not entirely, except under extreme situations.
We’re going to have to agree to disagree here. While I would have no problem with using the phrase “the airplane stops flying” with a fellow experienced pilot (including students approaching the checkride) I think it can scare the crap out of someone just starting out. I would also argue that saying “in a stall there is a reduction of lift generated by the wing” is MORE accurate than to say “the airplane stops flying”, particularly in something like a Warrior where, unless you’re really far into the stall, the ailerons still retain some function. (NOT that I would encourage their use in stall recovery, because that’s a bad habit) The airplane does not “stop flying” if you’re talking about a Warrior, it just flies a lot less well. The Cessnas, though - their stall breaks are much more noticable and strong, but then that design is about a quarter century older than the Warrior.
My personal opinion is that for the first couple go rounds with stalls it’s not “sugar-coating” to choose and alternate but accurate phrase like “reduction of lift”. I’ve talked to too many people who started flight training only to quit during stalls because the notion got into their heads that the plane “stopped flying”, then mutated into “nothing on this machine works, except the loud noise under the cowling”. And the older the student the more of a problem it is, because they’ve had that many more years of misinformation going into their ears.
I dunno, maybe you do a good job of explaining things so the stress level is minimal but a LOT of CFI’s don’t do a very good job at all. They say things that are alarming to the novice, don’t explain things well, and basically could stand to learn a few things themselves.
Harrumpf. I’m sort of taken aback by all the solicitation here over fear of stalling and airplane. My primary instructor and I took off and climbed up to altitude. The Instructor said something like ‘this is a power off stall and recovery’ and he performed one. It never entered my head to be afraid of anything. The instructor was in the same airplane and I had a lot of confidence in my belief that he didn’t want to die. After showing a stall he then talked through what happens and had me follow him through on the controls a couple of times and then do some on my own.
Of course, beginning in pre-flight school we were exposed to a lot of aerodynamics. Sort of an aerodynamics for the well informed layman to begin with but enough to know all about angle of attack, the difference between smooth and turbulent flow over the wings, why turbulent flow was bad and things of that sort.
Fear wasn’t ever part of my experience in flight training. Nervous? Apprehensive? Sure on first solo, the first strange field landing and the like. But I don’t recall ever being afraid.
“Nervous” and “apprehensive” are on the same spectrum as “fear”. It’s a matter of degree, not kind.
The only time I’d say I was really truly afraid as a student pilot was when I was forced down into an off airport landing by weather while flying solo. That IS scary.
On the other hand, it’s a lot easier to say “I was afraid of stalls” than to fumble around for paragraphs trying to describe my level of “extreme nervousness” or “moderate apprehension” or what have you.
I’ve also noticed that women tend to use “fear” where men will use a lesser term, but it really works out to the same level of sweaty palms and dry mouth. Culturally, there’s less penalty for women to use the “f” word than for men. (Older men also seem less reluctant to use the word “fear” as well, but that’s not as consistent in my experience)
All of which can lead to misunderstanding, because when the average women student uses the word “fear” she means one thing, but her CFI will interpret that as a much greater level of emotion than she probably means to convey.
I try not to use the word “fear” or “afraid” much when I meet a new CFI because all too often what I mean and what he hears are two different things. But, you know, some of the sensations I feel when things don’t go as planned can be accurately described as “fear” even if it doesn’t stop me and I go right back and work the problem. That was one of the most valuable lessons I learned from flying - I can be afraid AND keep functioning.
If folks didn’t feel afraid/nervous/anxious/whatever on their first stall that’s wonderful - but some of us did. In some cases, it’s enough to make a person drop out of training so even if YOU didn’t feel that way it’s a serious enough matter to consider. I mean, heck, I don’t get airsick but I don’t deny other people do. Maybe the fearless had a really good run-up description of what would happen and the fearful where in the hands of less competant instructors or, worse yet, jerks who like to frighten people. Or maybe, like me, they don’t like the way a stall feels and that, combined with the lack of certain control any novice feels, ups the anxiety level considerably. In my case, I gritted my teeth and kept doing it until I was certain that, even if I never enjoyed them, there was no question I could do what needed to be done correctly and reliably, even up to accelerated stalls and some spin training. Am I ever going to do stalls and spins for fun? Probably not - it’s really hard for me to imagine liking them. But I like the confidence I have from knowing I can handle the situation and that alone makes the sweaty palms and dry mouth worth it. The scant pleasure I get from them comes from my mastery of the airplane, not because I enjoy them as a physical sensation.
Excellent points on the gender-related flying issues.
I was terrified, but I did keep “functioning,” righting the aircraft, so I guess I’m proof that training can kick in even when you’re scared out of your mind. However, the anxiety instilled in me by my instructor before the spin combined with the fear I experienced after the spin have, in my mind, created an issue that makes me a bad pilot. Flying afraid is no way to fly, and I think it could breed an error or series of errors that could lead to death. I’m only speaking for myself, and my particular situation.
I did try to get back into flying in 1995 to work through my fears, but unfortunately, I had an instructor with other problems (he thought women were too emotional to be pilots and would do things like take me out flying in thunderstorms to test his theories), and I just gave up. I even asked the owner of the company if I could change instructors, and he refused!
It’s too bad, because I think I would have made a good pilot. Not a great pilot, but a good pilot.
Absolutely not in my case and that’s my whole point.
I’ve hemmed and hawed about whether I would post this because I don’t want to come across as heavy-handed about it. But I think we’re having a good discussion, and it’s a really important topic in aviation. So, with respect, here goes:
I’m sorry that some people dislike stalls or other maneuvers. I do my very best as a CFI to facilitate good experiences, but in the end:
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Stalls and slow flight are crucial maneuvers that must be learned.
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Some people are going to have bad experiences no matter how the situation is approached and what terminology is used.
Regarding point #1, it’s vital to know the performance of the airplane at slow speeds, to have an idea of when that performance is about to deteriorate into a stall, and to be able to react quickly and correctly if a stall develops. Here’s why.
There’s an alternative definition for the term “landing”:
Slow flight in close proximity to the ground, often followed by a stall.
As long as the timing is correct, and that stall happens a few inches above the ground, all is well. But one must know the performance of the aircraft, and that means practicing slow flight and stalls. These are the first maneuvers I practice when transitioning into an unfamilar aircraft.
Broomstick, I hope you’ll take my word for it when I say I’m an accomodating and encouraging instructor. I keep a lot of students other CFI’s lose. I think I empathize with students because I myself was afraid of stalls, spins and aerobatics when I learned them. One of my students was deathly afraid of flying IN GENERAL, and I got him through stalls. This brings me to point #2…
No matter how we approach the concepts or what terminology we use, a few folks aren’t going to like it and some will quit. It is a common point for students to terminate their training, and I doubt that will change any time soon. (But I do mean a small percentage - I’ve only seen one so far)
I’m sorry for that, but it’s hardly surprising. Aviation isn’t for everyone because some of its necessary sensations are unnerving. If I signed up to learn bunjee jumping I’d be fine up until I had to actually jump off the bridge. No matter how good the quality of instruction, I doubt very much I could do it without experiencing terror. I’d either have to try to build up a tolerance to that sensation, or I’d have to quit. At some point I might have to conclude that the activity just wasn’t for me.
My chief instructor often says, “You can’t bull**** the airplane.” These skills MUST be learned. No airplane is stall-proof. A small percentage of people won’t be able to do it. That’s unfortunate, but it’s part of life, and in the end it’s better for these people not to pilot airplanes.
There’s no shame in that - I feel no shame for my inability to go bunjee jumping. But if I can’t tolerate the essential components of the skill, it’s just not something I should be doing.
If one is going to be flying a plane, one should strive to achieve some sort of workmanlike comfort with these maneuvers. You don’t have to like each other, but you should at least be on speaking terms. It’s the difference between merely “operating” an aircraft and truly Flying the Airplane.
Having been mucking about in aerochines since I was a gleam in my Daddy’s eye, I can’t relate to everything others do.
But…
With decent forethought and preparation, most things should not be scary to the student. It is sad that there are instructors like the one Large Marge had. Sure hurts general aviation.
While I was instructing, I never had a woman student and I knew better than to teach my wife. ( Now there is a hard place to keep your mouth shut… )
Went through 6 instructors before we got the right one… ( This was long ago but the point is that it isn’t likely to work unless there is a good relationship between student and instructor. The way the military does it does not really count as they don’t try to bring along a slow or difficult student for the most part. )
IMO, by the time a person solos, there should not be any fear from terminology. If there is, the student or the instructor is not working out. If the student does not know what is being said, they are not prolly going to make it. IMO.
There comes a time when you must learn to make the airplane do what you want it to do without asking it to do something it was not designed to do.
Some of this can be learned in many ways but sometimes some of it can only be learned by reaching out and touching the face of God. ( if you are a fling wing herder, touching a tree will do. )
In Canada we had to learn stall and spins to get a license. I was never scared of either, but spins made me a bit apprehensive at first. But Cessna 150’s don’t spin worth a damn, and Cessna 172’s are worse. You have to work like a bugger to get a 172 to spin, and then once you do, to get it to stop just release the controls and it will recover itself in a half turn. Do that a few dozen times, and soon you won’t worry about them any more.
But some airplanes can be a handful. I did stalls in my Grumman AA1, and those worried me a bit because the Grumman has much more of a severe break than a 172, and will often drop a wing rather violently. Not only that, but a Grumman is not certificated for spins, and has spin modes that are unrecoverable. So unrecoverable that NASA lost one they were using for spin testing. It even had a drag chute, and deploying the chute didn’t pull it out of the spin.
So falling into an incipient spin in the little bugger could give your heart a bit of a boost, even though it’s always recoverable if you apply anti-spin inputs within a turn and a half.
I recommend spin training to everyone. It really makes you more comfortable flying if you’ve been in every possible situation the airplane can get into.
I can agree with that. Because by that time there should be confidence that the student can control the airplane.
What I disagree with is telling someone who has never experience a stall before that the “airplane is going to stop flying” as a bald statement. After they’ve experienced it and know on a visceral level that “stop flying” != “fall out of the sky” then it’s fine, but the average person walking in off the street with no aviation in their background has a definite liklihood of not reacting well to that statement. You can either do a really good job of explaining it beforehand - and if you do that’s wonderful but not everyone does - or make your before-first-stall explanation as unalarming as possible, make sure the student has a good first experience, and then make sure they’re conversant with proper terminology.
The instructor has a LOT to do with how the student reacts to things. I’ve seen instructors who unintentionally scare the crap our of people when talking about the most basic manuvers. On the other hand, I’m currently working with a guy who’s just about got me convinced that flying upside down is fun. I’ve never liked be upside-down in my life but after about 10 minutes with this guy I’m going “Hmmm… yeah, I can see that - how much did you say you charge for teaching aerobatics?..” You know, with that guy it might actually be fun. Truth is, knowing myself, the first couple times through some of those manuvers I am going to be scared - but with the right instructor it will be thrill-ride scary, not AAAAAAGH-I’m-gonna-die scary, which, at least for me is, an important distinction. Thrill-rides are fun as well as scary, and I’ll do more of that
If you’ve never been afraid… well, bully for you. I’ve been afraid lots of times, I’m not afraid to admit it, and I don’t think that makes me a bad pilot. You can scare me in the sky but you can’t scare me out of the sky, I’ll always come back to it.