Cinemax is showing all of the Star Wars movies this week so I figured it would be a good time to look them over again since it has been so long. I watched the first three, or the middle three or the last three or or whatever the hell they were. Anyway, in A New Hope, Vader seems like a mix between a mid-level commander and some sort of religious nut. Other officers are actually mouthing off to Vader and he debates them. When he’s choking one guy, he’s ordered to let him go and complies. In Empire Strikes Back, Vader answers only to the Emperor and kills people like they are bugs. Was the shift written in because Lucas realized he had a really good bad guy, was it a different writer or some other bizarre reason that only Lucas knows about? It does kind of make sense when considering that Hayden Christensen was Darth Vader but it still struck me as odd.
I know this post is rambling since I’m shooting NyQuil for my cold but what the hell?
As the situation stood in A New Hope, Vader was actually under the command of Grand Moff Tarkin. I really do think he was intended more as the Emperor’s strongarm in the first movie than he was in subsequent ones. By ESB, you could still be forgiven for assuming that the position of Sith Lord was one shared by several people, that Vader was perhaps only one of a circle of secondary-level commanders. But by Jedi, it was obvious that he was the only one, a definite second-in-command of the entire Empire.
Of course, the prequels completely blow those assumptions out of the water, but only in the same way that my going back to 1986 and somehow telling my father to buy as much MicroSoft stock as he could possibly afford would make an observer realize that the assumption that I’m a very minor government functionary living paycheck-to-paycheck is only a peculiar quirk and I really have several billion dollars in the bank…
Oh, could I take this opportunity to ask who were the two remaining pilots after Luke destroyed the Death Star in Ep. IV? Several ships flew away seconds before the DS blew up: the Falcon, two X-Wings and a Y-Wing. It’s obvious one of the X-wings was Red 5 (Luke) but who was the other one? Could be Wedge who left after his ship got shot but I would think he would be back at home base by then.
Actually the Y wings suffered almost 100 percent casualties, but the only ones we seen were doing the trench run. The lone Y that we seen heading back to base could have been doing flak supression killing the towers.
Memory does say that it was wedge that survived in the other Xwing, but would have to go back and look.
I am betting that the back filled story is going to be that Vader was the Emp’s hand and he was specifically tasked with retrieving the plans to the death star, but tread lightly around politically sensitive individuals who probably control a great deal of the navy.
What I don’t get is why Yoda and Obi-Wan (sp?) wanted Luke to confront Vader? Why didn’t Obi-Wan jsut do after Vader himself after he learned he was alive (or just kill him when Vader came out of the lava)? Obi-Wan was way stronger a fighter than Luke ever appeared to be. And why did Yoda just do into exile? And so what if Luke killed Vader, the Emperor (who was like a million times stronger than Luke) would still be around. even Yoda counldn’t make him. Why wait all that time for Luke to grow up just to send him against Vader? It makes no sense.
Wedge was the other pilot who survived the first Death Star run-in fact, he’s the only one seen in all three movies.
(Interesting fact-the actor who played Wedge, Denis Lawson, is the maternal uncle of Ewan McGregor, who played Obi-Wan in the prequels. In fact, it was Lawson who inspired McGregor to get into acting in the first place).
Now then, in the first one, keep in mind, Vader COULD probably say, “fuck it”, and choke the guy and just push Tarkin aside. BUT…I believe he’s most likely been ordered by the Emperor to listen to Tarkin, and I also believe he has sort of a respect for the guy, because Tarkin is just so ruthless and cold, that probably appeals to Vader.
So it’s not that he’s under Tarkin’s command so much, as that the Emperor ordered him to put up with Tarkin. So he does.
Vader was probably there to keep an eye on Tarkin. He had control of a planet destroying weapon, after all. Maybe the Emperor was worried that Tarkin may have had airs above his station. Vader was there to keep him on a leash. The Force Choke he did to that Admiral was a example to all of them: Get any funny ideas and you die.
First, keep in mind, neither the Emperor nor Vader knew that Yoda was still alive-I believe the Emperor thought that Yoda was killed when he fell from the platform in the Senate hall. So they needed to hide from the Emperor.
Also, they had to hide the twins, and it’s unlikely Obi-Wan would have survived a second fight against Anakin. They were hoping that Luke and/or Leia would be strong enough to defeat their father AND Palpatine-neither of them could manage it.
Look at Luke’s fighting ability. It was in no way near Obi-Wan or Yoda.
Obi-Wan could have easily taken Vader in a rematch. Then Obi-Wan and Yoda could have teamed up on Palpatine. That is a better plan than - let’s hope this Luke guy can do something.
It is clear that Luke was no match for Palpatine, but Vader got in a sneak attack. But this was something Obi-Wan and Yoda thought was impossible. They thought Vader was lost to the dark side and were not planning on him helping Luke. They wanted Luke to kill Vader. And then what? What could Luke do to Palpatine?
Lucas had no plan for these movies and it shows. There is no way to retro-con the story.
Obi Wan thought Anakin was as good as dead and only stopped to pick up Anakin’s lightsaber for future plot twists. As for why he didn’t do it when he realised the kid was still alive…well, by the end of Ep. III the Jedis “are all but extinct”. He and Yoda had to go underground to lick their wounds and figure out what to do next. They were simply shell shocked I believe. What with clones looking for them, their friends dead and the Emperor’s PR machine probably had turned the public’s favour against the Jedi, it was best to hide for the time being.
Luke couldn’t be a Jedi until he killed Vader. Yeah, even I didn’t buy that but Luke did when Yoda told him. Man, that guy was gullible to the max.
Here’s what Yoda & Obi should have done in Ep. III: Go to the Emperor’s chambers together. Yoda almost defeated Sidious single handedly. With Obi Wan in his tag team, they could have won that fight. Then go hunting for Anakin.
I am guessing that part of the jedi problem was that the kids were taken in at a young age and indocrinated into the ways of the force, leavened with some heavy ethics baggage.
I think that anyone who believes yoda and obi wan are either as strong or stronger than vader, is pretty much looking at the light side. My personal belief is that as far as luke is concerned, the new republic needed someone to go after vader that could not be corrupted , and at the same time grow up on a frontier world were he would not be pampered.
Your other points are probably best ansewered this way
Yoda seen which way the wind was blowing , and retreated to the swamp in anticipation of the future, which was about twenty years later, placing luke on tatooine makes him a weapon, but he needed someone in the ways of the force, at the right time to hone his edge.
Obi wan was a more mature fighter than vader, not a better one and as far as he was concerned , he was leaving vader to die. Little details like a mercy blow or finishing the job seemed to escape him, however i did not see obi as a killer , he had too much jedi baggage.
Just fighting Vader wasn’t the point - that was the way of the Dark Side (and one of the ways the Jedis screwed up in Ep. 3.) That Luke killing Vader was not the answer is the whole point of the scene in the cave. I’m pretty sure they never anticipated that Luke would turn Vader, but it wouldn’t have mattered. While the fight on the Death Star was going on, the landing party had blown up the shield generator, and the Death Star and everyone on it was dead meat. Luke diverted the emperor from paying attention to the battle. That he survived was a bonus.
The Emperor was sure less clever in Eps.4-6. Maybe he was out of practice.
It was certainly Wedge flying back from the Death Star so he could deliver his “good shot…” line in the next two movies as well. When you are in three movies and you have the same line in each, it’s either an inside joke or some poor bastard just doesn’t give a damn when he is writing the script. I know he had a few extra lines such as “I lost an engine so I’m takin off bitches, have fun tryin not to get killed” but damn! That is not even starting to get into the whole “I’ve got a bad feeling about this” line. If you have a bad feeling about it, don’t do it and especially don’t use it multiple times in each movie.
Many things have bothered me greatly about the movies but I’ll name two. First of is the Luke/Vader fight mentioned by Voyager. It seemed nothing more than a way to make the film longer and show lightsaber effects.
Scenarios
Luke never fights - Death Star gets blown up and everyone dies.
Luke kills Vader and goes to Dark Side - Ditto.
Any other results from battle - Ditto.
Palpatine and/or Vader realize what’s happening and jump in a shuttle to
escape - entire Alliance fleet is waiting outside for them.
In A New Hope, as the merry band is escaping from the Death Star, Leia says to Han “They let us go. They are tracking us”. Han replies, "No way baby, I got the pimped ride and dem fools ain’t gonna get me and my…"ok, something like that. Anyway, she knew they are being tracked and decided to fly right to the secret rebel base. What the ?!?!?
Sorry, one more. Luke, a farmer kid from a desert planet, flies off in an X-wing to attack the empire about 2 hours after he gets to the rebel base. Did flying his little hover car around the desert make him able to pick it up that fast? That means if you drive an SUV you can drive a tank into battle or go from crop dusting to flying fighter missions in a MIG in two hours. The two hours is a guess because it might have been shorter. Vader mentions about it being a great day for the Empire with the destruction of the planet and destroying the rebel base all in the same day. Which now that I think about it means that the Death Star either moved at light speed or the Millennium Falcon made a very short jump. Hell, if I’m off about this one, please let me know.
Forgot to post what I originally intented as my reply.
When Vader boards Leia’s ship, some junior officer is making comments about how the Senate will never stand for this or that. Vader proceeds to explain to him how the Senate has been disbanded so it doesn’t matter. What doesn’t matter is what some junior officer thinks when you are Darth Vader. As soon as he says anything besides “yes sir” or “right away”, you choke him to death. That was my first indication that something was wrong with Vader in A New Hope. You are Vader, you don’t explain things to your underlings. You tell them what to do and they do it or die.
Hmm, let’s see if I can sort this one out…okay, try these:
Maybe Leia decided on a last stand? They have the plans and their techno geeks can probably figure out a way to destroy the Death Star by the time it arrives at Yavin. I mean, the Falcon’s being tracked. No matter where they hide, they’ll be followed anyway. To quote Picard in First Contact, “We draw the line HEAH!*”. We fight and if we win, cool. If we die, we die fighting.
Biggs assured the guy (Red leader? Gold leader?) that Luke can fly this thing 'cause he saw Luke dodge obstacles in Beggar’s Canyon like nobody’s business. Plus, Luke was strong in the Force. People who are strong in the Force can fly a starship blindfolded with both arms tied around their backs.
Yeah, that always bothered me. The Death Star can sure move despite being a moon sized space station. I got nothing. Can the DS travel in hyperspace?
Vader did not say the Senate had been disbanded. Tarkin said that in the Death Star meeting room. What Vader said to that junior Officer was, “Leave that to me”. The “that” was how to explain to the Senate that he has a Senator in custody.
I think the dialogue went something like this:
*Junior Officer: Keeping the Princess is dangerous. If the Senate finds out…
Vader: Leave that to me. Send out a distress signal and inform the Senate that everyone on board was killed.
Junior Officer nods*
Vader only chokes you if you diss the Force. Boba Fett and even Lando Calrissian talked back to him and both were never choked.
Leia knew that the only chance the Rebels had was to get the Death Star’s plans interpreted and weaknesses exploited before the Empire captured them and took the plans back. If they continued to run, the Empire would track them, capture them alone somewhere, and take the plans. By exposing the secret rebel base, they could at least look at the Death Star plans and have a fighting chance.
Yoda never told Luke he had to kill or fight Vader.
Luke would not be a Jedi until he FACED Vader.
Not until he confronts his father and turns him from the Dark Side could Luke “pass final exams” and thus Vader would once again be Anakin Skywalker and bring Balance to the Force by eliminating Palpatine.
The reason Vader puts up with dissent in Star Wars and not in Empire is explained right there in the dialogue from Star Wars: the Emperor has just dissolved the Senate. He has only recently accumulated enough power that he can act with impunity. Up until that point, he had to at least pay lip service to the idea that he, and his henchmen, are still constrained by the law. He can’t let Vader run around murdering whoever he wants, because people would start to ask questions. After the Senate has been disbanded, Vader can act with a free hand. Tarkin’s death probably also helped the Emperor consolidate his control. Tarkin appears to have held the loyalty of the navy more directly than the Emperor himself did. (Unlike the army, the navy was not populated by clones.) Tarkin was as much an ally to the Emperor as a subject. If the Emperor tried to limit Tarkin’s power directly (such as by allowing his henchmen to indiscriminatly slaughter his officers), it might have provoked a schism in the Imperial ranks that the Emperor could not afford.
Leia leading the Death Star straight to the Rebel base was a calculated risk. Sooner or later, the Rebel fleet would have to face the Death Star. Better to do it around the uninhabited moon of Yavin, and not over some Rebel planet with billions of innocent lives on board.
Luke was an experienced bush pilot. He talks about “bull’s-eying womp rats from his T-34 back home” during the briefing before the attack. You can see him playing with a model of the T-34 when he’s on Tatooine, while C-3PO is getting his oil bath. According to the expanded universe, the T-34 was made by the same company that designed the X-Wing, and used an almost identical control scheme. Of course, he’s never had any sort of combat training, but it appears that the Alliance had more starfighters than pilots, and what did they have to lose at that point by putting him in a cockpit? His subsequent success, of course, is due to his force sensitivity.
Luke was also not meant to kill, or even turn, Vader. Luke was “their last hope” to establish a new Jedi order, not to whack the Emperor. And, as has been noted, the Emperor would have died without Luke’s intervention at all. Luke had to face his father, not to defeat or redeem him, but to prove that Luke would not follow in his footsteps.