Star Wars: The Force Awakens - Seen It (Assume Spoilers Within)

She does. She talked to Han about having an argument about the ship’s previous owner putting in the regulator.

Having talked too much about the one part I didn’t enjoy, let me be fair by and talking about all the aspects which worked for me, and why I’m likely to see it at least one more time before it leaves theaters.

Finn was fascinating precisely because he’s not a reactive character. From the very beginning of the film, he’s making active choices and defining who he is in terms of the world around him. This is something of departure for hero characters in Star Wars, who usually chase after the Obviously Evil Villains, or run away from Obviously Evil Villains. Finn has no such ambition, yet he comes across as a brave and effective figure in his own right. The only thing he lacks to become a hero is a reason.

As I mentioned way back, he seems to latch on to people nearby, but since Finn was “conditioned” at some point and can’t remember where he comes from, that’s not terribly shocking. The people he meets are literally the only people he knows who don’t build planetary superweapons. And speaking of which, once he has a chance to consider it, said superweapon outright frighten him. This makes a great deal of sense and it’s nice to see somebody admit that planet-killing in a rather scary concept. He’s not trying to act like a great hero, and he’s willing to listen to good advice and try his best. Sometimes, of course, his best is a little awkward. (“That’s not how the Force works!”) Additionally, I found his over-excited demeanor endearing. He’s clearly operating on raw adrenaline for half the movie.

And Poe: Poe is just great, and I hope he’s a bigger character in future films. He sees right through Finn, but shows he’s brave, kind and generous even when not fighting Obviously Evil Villains. He’s a great soldier, and to my eye you know exactly who he is when he take a shot at Ren. He has to know this is incredibly dangerous, but it also would potentially be a victory worth his life. (This may actually mean Ren’s later wound is a plot point, but that’s unclear.)

And on to Rey. I’ve said why I though the later part of the movie went in the wrong direction for her, but let me explain why I like her as a character. The image of her eating a meager dinner and gazing wistfully at the stars she wants to visit - she doesn’t need a word to explain. I loved every moment we see her commit to a new path, and having to face the fact - which she really knows but can’t yet admit - that there’s nothing to go back to and nothing more to wait for. The mere human being in a vast galaxy spooked by visions of the dark side? Perfect.

And Kylo Ren. Not my favorite villain in the series, but he has an side which twists the Star Wars themes in interesting ways. He’s not the Big Bad Villain yet - but he may well be on the path to becoming one. The little things, like the fact he keeps unleashing his rage on the nearest piece of computing equipment, make him a more intriguing foe than he had any right to be. He seems like a Vader-copy, but unlike the many pseudo-Vaders in Star Wars, this was an intentional character choice and tells us much about him. We don’t learn how or why he came under the domination of the Dark Side, but we can get the hints. And I actually liked the fact that he looked mostly like an ordinary man under that helmet. It really sells that the path to the dark side could be for anybody. No one starts out as a scarred cyborg consumed by evil, after all.

Mary Sue is a perjoritive term for a character designed explicitly with the intent to insert the writers persona into the story to live vicariously through them. Three dudes wrote this. Give me a fucking break.

Ah, yeah, right the story about how so-and-so got it from such-and-such etc and THAT was the guy who put in the widget…

Whether all of this is true or not, comparing Rey to Imperator Furiosa? High praise indeed! Two of my favorite movie heroes (and two of my favorite movies) from the last several years.

Aside from gender, Bechdel test, and “no-man’s-lass” (whatever that is), all of these could apply to dozens, if not hundreds, of movie heroes (Conan, James Bond, Neo, Aragorn, Marvel heroes, Indiana Jones, most Arnold heroes, Rambo, and tons more).

Why does it require a “Forest of Agenda” when a female hero matches up to these guys?

This movie is not perfect, but complaining about skeletons really isn’t helping your case. Like it or not, this board is generally on the feminist side so you’re going to find that continuing your analysis from this viewpoint is probably going to result in a pile-on that is bound to be rather tiresome from your perspective.

Translation (intended derisiveness preserved): “strong independent woman who don’t need no man”

It was just OK, to me. It was really just a remake with no attempt to carry the story forward, but reasonably well crafted and pretty, pretty lights.

Sorry, but this bolded bit here is precisely backward. She explicitly says she does know how to fly: when they’re running from the Tie Fighters, right before getting in the Falcon, Finn says, “We need a pilot,” and Rey replies, “I am a pilot.”

Also, when did she sabotage a security system? The closest thing I can remember to that was when she accidentally released the monsters on Han’s ship (because she’s “automatically good at everything”) but that wasn’t a security system, just a bunch of breakers.

She’s attacked by two thugs, and kicks both of their asses. I’m not sure why you have chosen to interpret that as meaning that the two thugs were incompetent. I know that if I were in Rey’s position, I’d have ended up a bloody lump under a sand dune.

Except, again, each time she uses the Force, it’s immediately after Kylo uses that exact power on her.

If you want to compare that to Luke, sure, let’s do that. When Luke is hanging upside down in the ice cave, how does he know he can levitate his lightsaber? Luke’s never seen a Force user do that. Hell, the audience has never seen a Force user do that. It comes completely out of left field. Likewise, when he Force chokes the guard at Jabba’s. The audience, of course, has seen Vader do that plenty of times. But Luke hasn’t. He’s never seen anything even remotely close to that. How did Luke know he could do that? We see Luke blocking blaster bolts. We never see him using the Force to target them, but he gets that right on his first try. We never see Luke pilot anything until he’s in the cockpit of an XWing, but he’s one of only four pilots to survive the battle. When he’s hanging from the bottom of Bespin, he telepathically contacts Leia. How did he know he could do that? Ben talked to him telepathically, but only after he was dead. He certainly never trained Luke in telepathy. How did Luke know that was something he could do?

Because immediately prior to that scene, Kylo tries to use the Force to make her give up the details of Luke’s map. Having experienced, first hand, what it looks like when someone tries to use the Force to manipulate your mind, she’s able to replicate the trick (with a little practice) on a Stormtrooper.

Because, again, immediately before that scene, Kylo picked her up telekinetically and threw her into a tree.

At that point in the film, Kylo’s failed his master by letting the map fall into the Resistance’s hands, failed him again by letting Rey escape, murdered his own father, been shot by a Wookie, and fought a soldier who had been trained in combat since infancy and taken a couple stab wounds from that guy.

Kylo was not at the top of his game by the time he started fighting Rey, and she still was barely able to beat him.

Did Rey pass the Bechdel test? Her conversation with Maz was about Luke’s lightsaber (and passing its legacy to her). I don’t remember if she had a conversation with Leia beyond hugging her. On the other hand, this wasn’t anything I was looking out for.

So just to be clear, you’re suggesting I have some sort of mental illness if I don’t ascribe to your little men’s rights activist interpretation of a Star Wars movie? Gotcha.

Rey and Maz are in a seriously grey area Bechdel-wise. It’s unclear whether you should classify the conversation as “about” her or “about” Luke. I’d be charitable and give it to the movie, but if it passes it’s by the skin of its teeth.

I’d say that passes. Luke wasn’t the topic of the conversation, which was mostly about Rey accepting her destiny as a Jedi, and facing the fact that her parents were never coming back to Jakku to find her. Luke is only mentioned as a reference point so that you understand that there’s a history to that particular lightsaber.

This movie perfectly accomplished what it needed to do.

Which was set up the new franchise. That means starting off respecting where it came from and pulling established fans in with service to the tropes and loved characters while introducing them to new characters who they can just begin to care about … while using those old tropes to hook a new generation who will spend the next decades with the newer characters and more, in both main arc movies and multiple other movies and shows set in the universe.

Ren is no Vader; he is explicitly being set up to be an arc in opposition, the attempted arc of the prequels that failed so badly: Vader began to us in episode 4 as the Dark side distilled to an essence, and eventually was somewhat redeemed; this introduces us to a weak version honestly conflicted about his pledge to the the Dark side, and we will see his full commitment develop, his doubts fade, and his power as the big bad develop. That’s the next movie: a contrast between Rey’s path to develop her powers and dedication to the Force and his training by Snoke and likely his usurping Snoke’s power and position, becoming “more” that Vader ever was.

Rey being Luke’s daughter is very explicitly telegraphed without being explicitly stated … so much so that I think it is a set up for a twist. Not much of one though … I’ll go with the guess of Ren’s twin that no one, at least including Hans and Leia, knew had survived birth … although Luke may know. The light saber called to her because it was her grandfather’s not because it was Luke’s.

To be scrupulously fair, there are several references to Luke being a pilot. Ben mentions it: “I understand you’ve become quite a good pilot yourself.” Luke himself mentions it when they’re dickering with Han: “You bet I could [fly the ship]. I’m not such a bad pilot.” And of course, he “used to bull’s-eye womp rats.” Now, again, being a pilot and flying a fighter plane in combat are two different things (and as I said, the womp rats were certainly not shooting back), but there is mention that he knows how to fly.

But of course, Rey also mentions that she’s a pilot, right before they take the Falcon. She is surprised that she’s able to fly it so well, after they dog-fight with the TIE fighters, but that’s not much different than Luke being able to dog-fight over the Death Star. I’d call it even. And I agree that most of Luke’s other powers, particularly the telekinesis and telepathy, seem to come out of nowhere.

That’s possible, but isn’t it too much of a parallel with Luke and Leia being twins or at least siblings?

That’s why it’s not that much of a twist.

You’re right, I got carried away there.

I’d say that the conversation is shadowed by Luke’s legacy and whether she’d follow in it even if they didn’t directly mention him much. But I’m not seriously worried either way (none of my personal criticisms about the film are about Rey). If anything, I’m more amused that the angry Furiosa/Rey rant would stumble at Rey NOT passing the Bechdel test :wink:

Yeah, I can see that. I sort of feel that they weren’t talking so much about Luke’s legacy as the Jedis’ legacy, which is a slightly different thing, even if they are intertwined pretty tightly at this point.

Well…sure, it was mentioned. But consider…he’s a farm boy who’s never been off planet. I didn’t see a hell of a lot of X-Wing fighters on the farm, either. So…where exactly did he get training to pilot something like a space fighter? Come to that, what exactly was he a good pilot OF? And how much experience could he have had? IIRC, he was only like 18. Let’s say in his off hours he was studiously engaged in a course on flying (what? everything?) using magical VR tech when he wasn’t bringing in the crops or going to Tashy station for power converters to put out on the north 40. How many years would he have had? He was supposed to go to the academy in the spring, where presumably he’d have had to learn something…otherwise, why go? :stuck_out_tongue:

The point of all of this is if the same level of scrutinize were used with Episode 4 that I’m seeing from folks about this movie (mostly not on this site btw) you could easily pick it apart in exactly the same way. Luke suddenly gets magical abilities like being able to just jump into a gun turret and shoot down fighters, or just jump into the cockpit of an X-Wing and not only hold his own, fighting in a VERY hairy dog fight, but fly up a ridiculous trench under fire (both fixed defenses AND freaking fighters, one of which was piloted by Vader) and fire a 1 in a million shot to destroy the Death Star (version 1).

Though if it passes it still kind of proves the point of the Bechdel test.

In a 2 hour 15 minute movie in which a woman plays the lead the debate over whether it passes Bechdel falls to a single 30 second bit of conversation with an approximately female character (but non-human so what does that mean, exactly) that still has lots of layering of a man in it.