Look, I respect your opinion on the film, but you do realize that’s all this is right? Many people disagree with you also, so saying that many people agree with you is meaningless assertion and appeal to popularity. We all have opinions, but we should be careful about asserting them as facts. Also there certainly are people that are complaining that its too different as the basis of their criticism. Just because that isn’t your opinion doesn’t mean that you can hand wave those criticisms away or claim that everyone that didn’t like it didn’t like it for exactly the same reasons as you. You seem to be trying to speak for everyone that has criticized the film, but you don’t. You and I both only represent our own opinions.
On that score, how do you figure everything was left status quo? The first order moving forward being led by a supreme leader that is extremely emotionally unstable, who seemingly isn’t 100% evil, and doesn’t seem to have much in the way of plans aside from “ruling” isn’t status quo. Who knows where he takes the first order from here. Having the entire rebel alliance reduced to being able to fit on the millenium falcon is not status quo. Having our ‘Jedi’ hero not even being a real jedi is not status quo. Having almost every trope subverted and going against expectations compared with previous Star Wars movies is not status quo. The secret rebel plan didn’t work, the other secret rebel plan didn’t work. What worked was Luke giving himself over to the force to save the rebellion by giving them time to escape and that is somehow shitting on his long established character? It’s like we watched two different films with how differently we feel about it. And that’s ok. People have been debating about films since they were invented.
That’s moving the goalposts from the post I was answering. It stated that people disliked TFA because it wasn’t different enough but disliked TLJ because it was too different.
That implies that they’re complaining that it’s too different from other Star Wars movies, but that’s disingenuous. It’s not what they’re complaining about. Saying that it fails to follow up on plot points from the first movie isn’t anywhere close to saying “it’s too different from other Star Wars movies.” And yes, most of the internet complaints DO say that it shit all over Luke Skywalker’s character.
Didn’t read the whole thread, but saw the movie yesterday and I really enjoyed it.
I agree with the “someone will always complain” thoughts. It’s true - with social media nowadays, no one will ever be fully satisfied.
I disagree. The ending had Luke in ghost force form, sacrificing himself so the Resistance could escape. Most of the resistance had been killed, only a dozen or so remain and they have nowhere to go. Kylo Ren is now being referred to as “supreme leader” so the future of the first order is anyone’s guess. None of this is “status quo.”
That being said, I do think Rian Johnson is setting himself up for the next trilogy, which (I think) he will write and direct all 3 movies?
Early episode IX prediction : Kylo was lying about Rey’s parents. They are actually much more important to the story than we’re led to believe.
I wrote a better Star Wars sequel when i was 14 than George Lucas produced, I’m sure I could write a better one now, having written 14 SF novels, than the one shit out in this movie. I doubt I’ll find a producer though.
But that’s all beside the point that your suggestion is a pretty lame answer to a criticism of a movie. I suppose no one can dislike a movie now unless they have the resources to make their own? That’s your position?
You certainly can dislike a movie, but you also should recognize that your opinion is just that, an opinion. Everyone else’s opinion is equally valid. TLJ isn’t a bad movie just because you assert that it is. Just like it isn’t a great movie just because I say it is.
Of course it is. It’s back to original trilogy status quo: the rebels are a small, ragtag group on the run and barely staying alive, the Empire is ascendant and close to crushing the Rebels, and there’s just one, plucky young Jedi hopeful with little training to oppose the dark lord in charge.
What WOULD have been different is if Rey had agreed to join Kylo in the end in exchange for him letting her friends go. No pointless battle on the sand planet, no idiotic speech from our mechanic turned philosopher, no force projection from Luke. It ends with Luke and Leia realizing from light years apart what Rey is doing and feeling horrified. The movie ends with everyone wondering whether she joined Kylo just to save her friends or if she’s gone over to the dark side and EVERYONE will spend two years in hot anticipation, coming up with new theories, whether they liked it or hated it.
Of course I realize that. However the plot holes are objectively plot holes whether or not you like the movie. Even people who loved this movie admit that there are numerous plot holes, and also admit that the whole segment on the casino planet was unnecessary and full of bad and obvious CGI.
Is I’ve mentioned several times in this thread and provided a link to, there were numerous plot holes on the original trilogy as well. That you chose to ignore all of those plot holes and enjoy those movies, but cannot look past any in this movie says more about you than about the movie in my opinion. This movie makes no more or no less sense than the OT if we are being objective here. I just recognize that I can’t look at a movie with my childhood eyes at this age and I don’t expect movies to make me feel like I did when I was 8 anymore.
The casino plot resulted in the spark of hope illustrated by the boy in the final scene of the movie. One of the biggest themes of the movie is that as long as that spark is alive the resistance will live on. We do not know who that boy is, but it seems like the fact that he has force abilities may be important.
Again, you hated the movie. That’s cool. But that doesn’t mean that only your opinion is valid.
I think what the fundamental issue is is that Star Wars is just not “big” enough creatively to support what Disney would like it to do. As good as it is, it isn’t designed to sustain dozens of movies and stories unless you:
Keep repeating the same beats over and over coasting on nostalgia (which is not going to last forever)
or
Make it something vastly different with some familiar visual cues which will disappoint huge swaths of the audience.
Just as a point of reference, when it looked like that question was up in the air, I remember thinking “Bleh, she’s going to join him because she’s a fucking idiot. Great.”
I wouldn’t have looked forward to the next movie in that universe. I would have felt like Rey got dropped in a vat of stupid sauce.
You can also dislike a movie because it just didn’t work for you. Not because you’re a disillusioned fanboy who thinks they own the franchise or a humorless sourpuss who didn’t “get” science fiction but just because the filmmaker failed to captivate you enough for you to overlook the movie’s flaws.
So have you changed your mind about the OT then, and now view those movies as terrible too? Or are you using a different standard for evaluating the new Star Wars movies?
Because to me it sounds like you are being unfair if you are being far more critical of this movie just because you aren’t the same age as you were when you saw the originals. There are plenty of 10 year olds that are going to see these movies now, and having a similar experience that you did at that age. Are they wrong for enjoying the movie?
Obviously rating and counting plot holes is far from an objective science, but… do you honestly believe that the level of plot-hole-ness in TLJ was equivalent to the level in the OT? Particularly SW and ESB (ie, the ones for grownups)? Because, as a fan of all the SW movies, plot holes in TLJ jumped out at me WAY more than in any previous SW movie, including the prequels.
Sure, everything has plot holes. But not everything has such glaring plot holes that they’re the first thing you discuss when leaving the theater, and you clearly have to add in a “despite the plot holes” when you say you like the movie.
I view Return of the Jedi as much worse now than when I first watched it. It could have been so much better. For the time, the SFX were still good, but the story wasn’t cohesive and Lucas took the easy way out far too often. Nowhere near as good as Empire.
All of this is subjective, which is my entire point. I’m saying nobody’s opinion is more valid than anyone else’s and we should not assert our opinions as though they are facts.
Also I think the plot holes jump out more because we aren’t kids anymore. And that was definitely not the first thing I discussed when leaving the theater. I discussed how great we thought it was when I was walking out with my friends. Again too many people are taking their experience and assuming that that was the correct experience. It’s all subjective.
I think this is one of those places where people who are really into Star Wars may be able to identify plot holes immediately simply because they are thinking about the universe more than many others. I didn’t love TLJ. I was fairly meh on it. But it wasn’t because of plot holes. I don’t think right now I could name the many plot holes people have identified as problematic for them, even in this thread.
I just turned to my husband who is a casual fan of SW and who is also meh about this one and he couldn’t think of any huge, glaring plot holes either. I’m not saying there were none, and I’m not saying they were so tiny as to be negligible. I’m just saying that I’ve seen all of the films except the third of the prequels and I wasn’t thrown out of the film by plot holes at all.
Your posts don’t illustrate that you know that though. You post as if your opinion is THE authority opinion on the movie. At least that’s how it has been coming across anyway.
I’m simply saying that its perfectly valid to really like the movie, as in fact many people did. You seem to be disagreeing with that though?