I believe Han also says, “Great kid. Don’t get cocky!”
That’s one response. Did you have the same response when Ren froze a blaster beam in mid-air rather than just stop it with his hand like Vader had done? Did you feel that diminished Vader’s badassness?
A Mary Sue is a character that is perfect in all ways and at everything they think to do. They don’t have character growth because there is no where for them to grow since they are perfect.
I don’t like Wonder Woman and find the movies tedious but she clearly has issues and character growth during the movie (still have seen the sequel). The closest Rey comes to character growth is realizing the Han isn’t her long lost father it’s Luke and that her real parents loved her very much just like she thought.
Well, that was something Ren did after years of study with the two most powerful Force users in the galaxy, not something he figured the day after he learned he was Force sensitive. Also, while perhaps more impressive technically, it still wasn’t as cool as Vader stopping blaster bolts with the palm of his hand.
But, anyway, I didn’t mean that the scene took anything away from Luke, I meant it took something away from Rey. She starts off able to do so many Force things, it flattens her arc. Luke went from naive farm kid to Jedi master over the course of his movies. Rey went from badass Force user to slightly more badass Force user over the course of hers.
My headcanon is that she got it all from Ren linking with her in the interrogation room. He sucked out her dream of the island and her emotions about growing up on Jakku, she got some of his Force skills.
That’s not a bad take, and is probably supported by the revelation in the third movie that they’re a Force dyad. Or would be, if they’d ever explained what a “Force dyad” was.
That’s par for the course - did they ever actually explain what a “vergence in the Force” was?
Yeah, that is my take on it as well. Like realizing you can do something all of sudden because you are forced to. I also think that as far as Luke is concerned, it is fairly well established that he has led a rather conflict free life up until the point he meets the droids, while Rey grew up by herself and had to both fend for herself to survive as well as defend herself. In terms of having actual fighting skills, she definitely had a leg up on Luke when she was drawn into the conflict.
//i\\
They explained “Force dyad” well enough: They’re a pair of individuals who are mystically connected to each other, and because of this they’re much more powerful than they otherwise would be, especially together. What more do we need to know?
“They’re mystically connected to each other.” “How and why?” “Because they’re a Force dyad.” “What the fuck is a Force dyad?” “It’s when two people are mystically connected to each other.”
Even worse than midichlorians - it has all of the “explaining something that doesn’t need to be explained” energy but it also doesn’t actually explain it. It’s also yet another example of “JJ Abrams doesn’t understand that the characters in the movie are not also audience members for the movie” - if these two are so fundamentally connected then why did neither of them notice it until the second that the plotline of The Force Awakens began? The fact that the movie started should not have meaning to the characters in-universe, but let’s add that to the list of 70 other instances where JJ’s scripts rely on characters knowing they’re in a movie or knowing information that only viewers of previous Star Wars movies should have access to.
I still can’t believe Abrams retconned the very best Johnson ideas in TLJ – that Rey’s bloodline was irrelevant, and what the First Order could have been like if Kylo Ren had lead with a “let the past die” philosophy.
Imagine the end of the movie, when the Resistance forces are desperately trying to destroy Palpatine’s secret fleet of planet-killing Star Destroyers, and are already losing badly. When a fleet of First Order SDs drop in from hyperspace, commanded by Kylo Ren, surely the fate of the Resistance is sealed - until the FO opens fire on Palpatine’s ships.
I like to imagine a story that didn’t involve Palpatine or planet destroyers at all…
I actually think both those elements are fine, they just weren’t set up very well. Palpatine’s return should have been teased in the first movie and revealed in the second, not just thrown in out of left field in the last movie with no foreshadowing. A fleet of Star Destroyers with miniaturized Death Star canons is a great way to set up a galactic threat without rehashing the Death Star for a third time, but also should have been something that was set up earlier in the films - have Palpatine gift the FO with a fleet of clone-crewed SDs in the second movie, but Plapatine’s real goal (now that he’s a Dark Side ghost) is to cleanse the galaxy of life. This puts them in opposition with even the FO, who being alive in the galaxy, are not thrilled by this plan, and sets up a heel-face turn when they join the Republic to destroy Palpatine’s clone fleet. End the trilogy with Palpatine finally defeated for good, and Kylo Ren alive and kinda redeemed, but also the leader of the First Order and therefore essentially untouchable by Republic forces looking to bring him to justice.
Then hand the setting to Dave Filoni, and let him run wild with it.
Nah I’m with iiandyiiii. Palpatine’s return and “Death Star…but more” are inherently bad ideas and it’s hard to think of a treatment that wouldn’t be cringe.
Actually, I’d love to have seen Ian McDiarmid camping it up again as Senator Palpatine, but that’s an even harder write-in.
And if you can’t do that, it’s hard to see what the character is bringing over Snoke, while at the same time bringing a heavy eyeroll cost.
A six movie history of antagonism towards the protagonists?
It turns the series into a multi-generational story of the Skywalker family’s struggle against a seemingly unstoppable evil, and provides a unified theme for the franchise. I think it’s actually fairly easy to write a strong outline of how this could have worked, and worked well.
Sure and we can bring Palpatine back again for episodes 10, 11 and 12.
I mean, if there’s apparently no point where it gets silly, and it doesn’t matter if we see Palpatine die, then why not?
We established all the way back in the very first movie that strong Force users tend to stick around after they die, but we’ve only ever seen it happen with good guys. “What does a Dark Side Force ghost look like?” is a reasonable place for the franchise to go, and Palpatine is pretty much the only vehicle to explore it. If Obi-Wan, who was concerned about the fate of the Jedi and the two Skywalker kids in particular, can come back to give Luke hints about his sister, what does Palpatine, who was obsessed with power and control, want to do when he comes back?
Sure, it can get repetitive, but “Palpatine, Secret Traitor,” “Palpatine, Emperor of the Galaxy,” and “Palpatine, Terror from Beyond the Grave,” are very different threats, and lead to very different stories, even if they’re all basically the same guy.
I am perfectly fine with Palpatine, though it would be nice to have it more alluded to earlier. After all a MAJOR plot point in the Skywalker story is the existence of clones. They make up a great deal of the story in (obviously) Episode 2 and Episode 3 and you have the multiple Clone Wars series. Having Palatine exploit clone technology, which he used to take the entire Republic over would be a great way of doing things.
Not to mention, I like that the one constant in all the trilogies is that Palpatine is the baddy - it’s the story of how the Jedi defeated one of the most power Dark Force users of all time. I like it.
Obi-Wan deliberately sacrificed himself (IIRC) to be in a state where he would *rarely* give hands-off advice.
Palpatine coming back looks cynical any way you spin it, but especially if he’s physically present as a direct threat himself.
So yeah, I’m not on board.
If I were to concede anything, it would be that an occasional Palpatine (or Anakin) “Use the dark side, Ren” could potentially work within a narrative…I don’t see how, but it’s not as obviously bad and hackneyed as him coming back like Freddy Kreugar or something.
I like it, but there’s a point where it has to end, surely. 6 movies looks enough to me, especially given the obvious death at the end of 6. Again, if 9 is perfectly fine then why not 12, 15 etc movies about Palpatine, and no problem bringing him back from the dead because clones.