Wow. That’s a whole shit-pile of weasel words. I’m a bit stunned, but I realize that in this big world, SA is not the only one to have caveman-like views on topics like this.
So, yes, unwanted kissing and groping is sexual assault, you moron. They aren’t trivial, and women shouldn’t just have to cope with it.
Trust me, I’ll let you know that I think you’re an idiot wherever I choose to. And I do.
I’ll bet you grope women’s hands, you hand-shaker you!
Well, if forced kissing and groping aren’t sexual assault, would they not at least be considered battery? My reaction to those things would tend to include a knee to the groin or an elbow to the solar plexus or possibly sinking my teeth into something, so I hope my way of “coping” would not get me charged with assault but instead be considered self-defense. I suppose I could confine myself to swearing, ridicule and contempt if I had to, but I am less afraid of people who are bigger than me if I don’t feel that I can’t just go berserk on them.
IIRC, what Hector was whinging about wasn’t even forced kissing, it was attempted kissing by an amorous young guy who’d had too much to drink and had become smitten with Doris Day at a nightclub and was trying to kiss her. She was in the midst of politely (i.e., copingly) fighting him off when she was rescued by Rock Hudson, who unknown to her had designs on her himself. (It’s a wonder Hector didn’t whinge about how predatory Hudson’s character was and how glad he is that men no longer pursue sex with women like they did in the evil 50s.)
Look, there are all sort of ways men try to kiss women or do kiss women either unexpectedly or against their will that do not have sex as an immediate goal. To me that takes them out of the category of sexual assault. Then, depending upon the wide variety of circumstances under which they might occur, which could include being on a date, having met at a bar or nightclub when one or both are under the influence, or in a situation where some arrogant guy grabs a woman who’s shown no interest in him and forcibly kisses her in such a way that she resist, the range of behavior in my opinion could be anywhere from benign up to what could legitimately be called assault, or as you say, battery. And the retaliations you describe would be appropriate as well. In fact they would come under the heading of some of the ways women would “cope” with such behavior in the 50s.
Don’t misunderstand. I’m not saying men should be free to kiss and misbehave with women all they want and women should just suck it up and deal with it. But I am saying that things are what they are and that a kiss is not sex, therefore an unwanted kiss - or in the case that gave Hector the vapors: an attempted kiss - is not sexual assault in any rational, non-politically motivated sense of the term.
I wouldn’t be surprised if eventually Hector and his ilk don’t begin characterizing certain ways of looking at women as sexual assault. Come to think of it I wouldn’t be surprised if some of them don’t already.
So, just like every one of Starving Artist’s arguments, this one is based on a hazy and incorrect recollection of the past. Despite this, he feels it acceptable to advance an argument based upon it and adamantly defend it without reservation. He even feels comfortable to extend it into a full generalization about liberals and into a position on what sexual assault is and is not.
All over a scene he doesn’t even remember. Of course, facts have never been relevant for him.
I wouldn’t be surprised if eventually S A, who doesn’t seem to have any ilk, doesn’t begin just making up fake arguments to argue against. Come to think of it, I wouldn’t be surprised if he was doing that already.
What crime (if any) should it be? Let’s put down a few scenarios: a man grabs a woman and kisses her, without her permission, and though she is trying to push him away… a man grabs a woman and tries to kiss her, but she successfully pushes him away and runs off… a man gropes a woman’s breasts or butt in a crowded train…
Are any of these crimes, in your mind? As what crimes should they be considered?
Who is Hector?
And Rock Hudson didn’t have any designs on Doris Day. Maybe her date…
Here’s the scene in question. The context is that Jan, an interior designer, was at a client’s house, and the client’s son Tony tells Jan that he will give her a ride home. Jan and Tony have no relationship outside of this. Along the way home he pulls the car over and does the following:
It’s worth noticing that Jan does give in to his ultimatum to go and have a drink, and that in the movie, Tony does not suffer any consequences for his behavior.
So, ha ha, isn’t this whole thing funny? How about when Tony tells Jan: “It’s my word against yours”? Ha ha!
I would beware of drawing generalizations about domestic violence based on an article that covers a lot of different subjects at once like this. It’s a good jumping off point, though, for the idea that ‘‘raising awareness’’ has the potential to backfire and/or normalize undesirable behavior.
[QUOTE=Heffalump and Roo]
But carrying that over to punishing people on the basis of the level of subjective injury of the victim seems problematic to me. If one victim is subjectively harmed to a greater extent than another victim, should one accused be subject to more punishment than another accused based on the victim’s subjective harm? That doesn’t seem fair.
[/QUOTE]
I’m not suggesting anything to do with punishment. I think the best thing to do regarding punishment is to generalize about subjective harm to the average victim. Thus rape would carry a higher legal penalty than groping or forced kissing. I was responding to SAs assertion that these were not problematic behaviors, that women should just laugh them off, like ladies in movies in the 1950s.
[QUOTE=Heffalump and Roo]
The broad brush of “why we can’t just take their fucking word for it” only works for some contexts, IMO. In which context are you applying this?
[/QUOTE]
The context of not acting like a shitheel on a message board. SA seems to have backpedaled though.
“Reckless eyeballing”. Not necessarily a crime, except in the sense it might get you killed, if the local community had an objection to your complexion. Not exactly a liberal point of view, but still present in the halcyon days you pine for.
Not to mention it was just used as an example of how attitudes were back in those days. Starving Artist tries to claim were condemning the movie itself, because it makes his argument look better (or rather, he THINKS it does).
Did you ever get the energy to do this?
Never mind. I see that you have already answered my question.
Making an arse of himself is something he does (almost) every single time he posts.
I disagree with pretty much everything SA says in this thread (or just about anywhere), but I think that IF sexual assault includes any unwanted physical contact on a region of the body anywhere near an erogenous zone, then it’s pretty inarguable that the worst possible outcome of being falsely accused of rape is WAY WAY WAY worse than the least offensive possible case of sexual assault.
I hope no one things I’m trying to white knight SA here or anything, but let’s not go overboard and either dismiss entirely the problems that can be caused by a false rape accusation or ignore the differences between sexual assaults of different sorts and levels of severity.
SA’s feeble arguments can be defeated with logic and facts, but we just weaken our position by refusing to acknowledge when there’s at least qualified truth in what he says.
MaxTheVool, I don’t disagree with you, except to say that I have never seen SA respond to logic or facts.
Well, if he’s/you’re a good Christian,
Which, I hear, was very popular in the 50s.
CMC fnord!
The worst possible outcome of me just sitting here in my chair (a heart attack, a meteor hits me, a chair spring impales me right in the tube-hole.) is way, way worse than someone waving their dick in my face on the subway. That doesn’t make sitting in my chair and being flashed not a dumb comparison. SA said nothing about the absolute worst possible outcome of a false accusation was worse than being groped, he just said “being false accused of rape” (meaning any false accusation, this being English we are typing) was worse than “being groped against [one’s] will” - that he later chose to pad this out with worst case scenarios is irrelevant.
Just driving by to say, if this board ever implements avatars, this one’s ready-made for S.A.
Holy smokes, it’s him!