Something tells me you toy with me, Hbns.
If you really have been convinced, though, good. Keep thinking about it. If that was a lie…why?
Just sit with it, tell me what comes up for you.
No, no, no, no… You don’t get to do that.
You claimed specifically that “all the evidence we have for his state of mind and emotional response to his Big Adventure, in the form of witnesses, video and audio, vital signs, and his own statements then and since tell us that he did not find the even particularly traumatic at all.”
You made an affirmative claim that there was evidence that he didn’t find the event traumatic, and now you’re back peddling and saying “we have no evidence.”
The evidence of trauma was that there was an extremely traumatic event. Shooting someone, under nearly any circumstance, is traumatic. We can’t assume that someone went through something like this and was not affected by it, that’s just a ludicrous claim and you need something to back it up before you make it.
That’s a different issue. You were arguing, basically, that there is no significant difference between “you got me” and “you got me or you got it or something like that” I demonstrated that there is in fact an important difference. You were wrong.
I suspect you are annoyed that I have questioned you often. If your recollection is half decent you will know that I posited that Zimmerman was full of shit early on. Hell I got in a big ruckus with youwiththeface because my scenario while fitting the physical facts, it didn’t paint Martin as an entirely innocent party.
I’m not interested in playing games. If you are unwilling to tell me what it means to you, I’m not going to speculate.
I am simply curious what conclusion you feel should be drawn from this?
Well that’s confusing, since you just said his statements “then and since” were evidence.
I guess this is right out too, then:
Unless his wrist was aligned a little too far to the left. Or the right. Or if he weren’t thinking clearly.
Was Ronald Reagan a liar too? He had to have known he was shot, right?
I personally think it was an unnecessary lie designed to make him look like an angel rather than just a normal, regular dude. Dumb liars always do this.
However, his actual claim (not knowing he shot Trayvon) makes him look worse, in my eyes. If you don’t know that the danger has been eliminated, you shouldn’t act as if it has been. Zimmerman claims that right before he shot TM, he was in mortal fear. So he should have continued to be in mortal fear after shooting him. This means he should have run away from TM the moment it became available to him. He should not have done anything that could be construed as escalating the fight.
But what did he do? He tackled the boy and restrained him. If TM had still had life in him, which according to his own account he believed to be the case, this would have definitely escalated the fight. How can someone claim to be in fear of his life when he’s escalating the fight? It’s insanity and defies reasoning.
His own words indict him. I really thought the prosecution would have nailed him on this, but AFAIK it never came up.
No. Aligned a little too far left hits Martin in the right lung, or liver, or right shoulder, or arm. He’d have to go WAY left to miss him entirely. Have someone pretend to smother you while straddling, you grab their arm and aim..see how far you’d have to turn the gun to miss hitting them somewhere at that proximity.
Did Reagan have someone straddling him and smothering him when he took aim and shot at point blank range? Pretty sure not, so your comparison escapes me.
What is that supposed to show?
(And his statements are evidence of many things)
Monstro, I think stoid was asking if my statement was a lie.
It was slightly. I still think an initial thought that he had missed isn’t outside the realm Of possibility. Persisting with that belief for more than a moment raises my suspicions.
And why is that so unthinkable, that you’d go way left or way right firing from the hip in a struggle?
And what if the person doesn’t fall instantly dead, or scream, or fly backward, or whatever you were expecting? That must mean you didn’t hit them.
It’s pretty simple: if Reagan couldn’t tell that he himself had been shot, why is it improbable that someone would be unable to immediately tell that someone else had been?
No, YOU don’t get to do THAT…we have no evidence OF TRAUMA. His affect was calm, controlled, focused. Not traumatized.
We also cannot assume that they went through it and experienced something specific to some particular degree.
We can’t assume. Period.
I also didn’t say he wasn’t affected at all. I said that I do not believe that it is true to guess that he said unbelievable, ridiculous things because he was so traumatized, or that he thought or believed same.
I think we’d need the Counselor to confirm or deny it, but I don’t believe that you could claim, for legal purposes, that any given person experienced a particular emotional response based exclusively on the fact that the person experienced an event that usually produces a particular emotional response in most people.Especially if there was no evidence that the person had that response, and extra especially if that person was the defendant in a murder trial, since I think, could be wrong, but I think a person’s behavior and affect can be considered evidence itself. (Hell, I think that’s why Amanda Knox was convicted…the Italians didn’t like her behavior in the wake of the girl’s death…) So just operating on an assumption that all people who shoot other people or get in a fight simply are traumatized and are traumatized to such a degree that nothing they say or perceived can be considered reliable doesn’t seem a very workable (or sensible!) position for the State to be taking about people who shoot other people, ya know?
That Zimmerman was concerned about being damned for the shooting. That’s a whole set of trauma all its own.
Huh? You just said it wasn’t evidence at all:
Fired from the hip? And hit Martin in the heart? Was Martin in the process of getting down to give him a blowjob? Really, you guys have to stop guessing at stuff to make your points!
He ***took aim ***and fired. His own report, his own words. Pretty much what taking aim means is that you are looking at your target and lining up your weapon to hit where you are looking. So yeah, I do find it so unthinkable that he’d go way right or left taking aim after taking control, which is what he told us happened, not a wild shot in a struggle, from the hip. Stick with evidence! Or at the very least the story he told! You don’t get to make up a better one than he told to explain away things when you have zero evidence to even suggest it. If he’d hit Martin in the gut, or the crotch, or the leg, or just about anywhere with a wacky trajectory that made it entirely possible or likely that he shot from the hip, well, then you would have something. But the bullet went about as straight as bullets ever do, into the heart. Not a shot you could make from the hip on a man 4-5 inches taller than you who is (supposedly) trying to smother you to death with his hands just before you shoot him.
Thinking caps, people!
Not to me. Especially if what they DO do is sit up, clutch their chest and say “you got me”.
Um, no, they are not related things in any respect.:smack: Reagan wasn’t aware of something that had happened to him that he had no reason to expect had happened to him before it happened. And it is well established that people frequently do not feel the pain of an injury immediately, due to many factors. Takes a while for the brain to get with the pain program.
But Zimmerman was taking a deliberate action under his own control, and successfully pointed the gun and pulled the trigger. His expectation would be to hit Martin, seeing as how the bullet exited the gun in the middle of Martin’s chest from a few inches away, where Zimmerman was aiming. So for the bullet to miss would be shocking and completely inexplicable. Stunning, even.
Roll with it. Just think on it. What an odd thing to lie about. Why? What would he be trying to keep from people knowing or seeing or asking about?
You seem a clever fellow… I’d be interested to know where your suspicions take you.
No, Martin was on top of or leaning over him. I can really tell that you didn’t watch the trial.
Some reports, and not others. It’s not something he’s definite about.
That’s only possible when you can bring the weapon to your eyeline. Anything else is hip-shooting, which is wildly inaccurate unless you practice it heavily.
I forgot how little you know about firearms. The technical term for it is point shooting.
Ah, to you. The person who wasn’t there and has never seen anyone shot (unless you have). That makes your insights non-valuable.
Who said he clutched his chest? Stick with evidence! Or at the very least the story he told!
Also, why should they sit up? Why not collapse flat or fall backward?
So, someone who’s been shot can fail to react from pain right away. I agree.
What if you shoot right at someone, and they fail to react? What thought might cross your mind?
No, I have always been arguing exactly the same thing: that he knew from the second he squeezed the trigger that the bullet hit Martin, and on top of the point blank shot itself, the series of things he described afterwards just added to that already -complet knowledge, and kinda proved in themselves how ridiculous his claim was.
Then someone…can’t recall who, Human I think, watched the re-enactment video and convinced themselves that there was some radical difference in what I described vs. the verbatim quote, and it was deliberate, because it would then make Zimmerman seem less credible.
None of which even made any sense to me, because I didn’t see any distinction between “you got me” and “you got me PLUS” since it’s always included the “you got me” part. The point is that he keeps saying it, and saying it conjunction with saying he didn’t know he hit, and that’s just beyond lame, no matter what else he says.
And I hope nowhere in this you are saying/thinking that the “you got me” part was supposed to be the big “aha!” evidence that he knew he had hit him, because…no. Never: without the whole control Martin, take aim, fire point blank at the guy filling up the space in front of you part, the rest is merely suggestive, suspicious and “Really?”:dubious: vs. the whole control Martin, take aim, fire point blank at the guy filling up the space in front of you part, which is “You are a fucking liar, man, because there’s no way on earth you didn’t know you hit him after aiming your gun at his chest and pulling the trigger, who the hell do you think you’re talking to? Houseplants?”
I’ll show you mine. But I want to see yours first.
It’s never been “you got me PLUS”, it’s been either “you got me”, or “you got it”, or “something like that”. You only wrote it as “you got me”, ignoring Zimmerman’s confusion on that paid, and also only wrote that Martin fell off of Martin, ignoring that he said he may have shoved him off. While that could be an innocent error, it’s notable that both elements you chose to highlight are the ones that made Zimmerman’s claim more doubtful: “you got me” and Martin falling over.
[quote-=Stoid]
vs. the whole control Martin, take aim, fire point blank at the guy filling up the space in front of you part, which is “You are a fucking liar, man, because there’s no way on earth you didn’t know you hit him after aiming your gun at his chest and pulling the trigger, who the hell do you think you’re talking to? Houseplants?”
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And that’s just arrogance on your part. There’s no other word for it.
Yeah, the only thing he seems definite about is the stuff that is the least believable: the head bashing and smothering.
Then I guess Zimmy’s been hanging at the gun range plenty!
Do try to remember what you said:
[QUOTE=Stoid]
Not to me. Especially if what they DO do is sit up, clutch their chest and say “you got me”.
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You wanted me to agree with your scenario “that must mean you didn’t hit them” - doesn’t mean that to me. I think anything can happen when a person is shot, there’s no particular rule about falling, screaming, etc. Everyone gets shot in the heart in their own special way. Zimmerman’s description of Martin’s behavior would qualify as a reaction to being shot.
Where did I say anything about what should happen? I didn’t.
I don’t know how you shoot “right at” someone. If I shot someone the way Zimmerman describes shooting Martin, and they fail to react in any respect, continuing to try and smother me, punch me, etc. I’m amazed and think maybe they are on some kind of drug that makes them have the weirdly superhuman ability to keep going in spite of massive injuries that would flatten anyone else. Angel dust had that rep when I was a young’un.