Stealing donated items - is there case law on this?

Factual Questions
21

In a somewhat similar vein, I used to run a secondhand clothing sale. People would donate old clothes and the sale profits supported the food charity that was the main object of the organization. Lots of really nice things would be donated and sometimes people would come in and buy bags and bags of the nicer things regardless of sizes. One of our volunteers spotted some striking items at a yard sale and recognized them as coming from our sale. At the next meeting she boiled over with rage. “Thief” was one of the milder names she called this person. It took almost an hour of debate and explanantion before everyone finally saw that once the person had paid the price we asked for the items, they could dispose of them as they pleased. My position was that if they had the gumption to take the stuff and turn a profit for themselves, more power to them.

Not exactly the same as the OP’s situation but fairly close.

22

In a way, exactly the OP’s position. It is about ownership and what one can do with property once it is theirs. The library is giving away books. You walk up, take a bunch of books away. Many bunches. The library has no set policy ( " No more than 3 a day " ) at all. Therefore, the public is free to avail themselves. Once the property is recognized as THEIRS, they may dispose of it as they see fit.

While I’m not a fan of burning books, I could easily see impoverished people trucking away tons of books so they’d have a bit of fuel to use, free of cost.

The clothing drive story of yours is the same. What if that person was selling the items on eBay, making a bloody fortune? Does that person owe you? I say not at all.

23

[QUOTE=anson2995]
What setup? What storage? If you’re putting them out in the lobby for people to take, just hang a sign that says “book sale - fifty cents,” and collect the money at the desk. That’s what my library does. If you’re not doing this as a fundraiser, I really don’t understand the point of the exercise. At $0.50 a book, you’re giving away $15k a year.

If the volume of books concerns you, you can find a wholesaler who will pay you for large lots, or make an arrangement with a local used bookstore, or get a volunteer to sell them on ebay. I’d wager that hundreds of libraries are doing the same thing.
[/QUOTE]

Perhaps you misread the statement which you qouted. Therefore, I’ll say it again:

“The library doesn’t want the hassle of storing the books between sales and setting up a sale. Not my call.” :smack:

I am also unable to change the weather, turn water into wine or affect the outcome of football games. Similarly, I do not dictate the policies of the library for which I volunteer.

This is why I rarely read or use General Questions. I asked a FACTUAL question, got an answer and then 19 people piled in to express disbelief that I asked a factual question (I’m looking at you cookeze) or offer suggestions for change, which is something I have no control over. If I wanted your HO, I’d have asked for it.

Sincerely,

whistlepig

24

[QUOTE=Cartooniverse]
Just to play devil’s advocate here. What makes the library think they can ban any ONE person from making use of the free books on the cart out front? Couldn’t that man just as easily say, " You cannot ban me from taking some books, while you allow Joe Schmo or Janey Brainey to take books. I live here. I pay identical municipal taxes, a part of which goes to the budget for the town library."

I do agree that what he did was pretty skeevy. But just as a D.A. may be hard pressed to do something, your library will be equally hard pressed to prove that you have the right to selectively give way free books that were for all intents and purposes a part of a library system that is supported by the taxes paid by The Schmuck.

Just a thought.

Or, to put it another way, what about someone who gets something through Freecycle, then sells it on eBay for $ 200.00 ? Do the owe Freecycle some cash? Do they owe the former owner of the item cash? I doubt it.

Cartooniverse
[/QUOTE]

Okay, so after bitching about paying for this board, I coughed up 15 bucks and am a subscriber.

Anyhoo. I don’t understand your point. Surely the library has retained a semblance of property rights, even though they are a government organization.

I can stroll through the front door without a shirt, smoking a cigarette, in bare feet, demanding to take a free book? Cursing blacks, Jews, and homosexuals while burning an American flag, possessing drugs, bomb making material, and preaching Jihad among the infidels?

Waving a gun around with or without a permit, telling everyone that this library is simply an alien conspiracy designed to prevent Christian white males and some Bolivians from achieving our rightful purpose as leaders of the free world telling the undesirable races, religions, and colors to go to the library down the road.

What part of what I said is offensive/allowable to exclude to you?

25

Okay, the OP wants a factual answer. I’ll do my best. I don’t know how it is where you are. I can only answer for here.

To quote a friend of mine, who is a cop, “In California, with a few exceptions, a police officer, absent a warrant, cannot arrest or cite a person for a misdemeanor that wasn’t committed in his presence.”

So say you go to this guy’s yard sale and call the cops to meet you. And say that they actually show up. They see a guy selling books, and, I’ll assume, other things.
This is not a crime.

So you say the books are stolen. They will ask you, “Are they your books?” This is important. You have to have standing to press charges. You cannot do that if the books are stolen, but they are mine. That would be my problem. Maybe the cops would contact me to see what I wanted to do, but they wouldn’t make an arrest on your say so.

But I would have to prove that the books are mine.

And, if you go into the facts of why you think the books are stolen—that they are free, that you don’t think that the guy should be selling them, that he maybe lied to you, and that he took more than his fair share— hey—the cops could use a good laugh.

If your library wants to make a policy about how many books a person can get free, per visit, they should do so and post that policy clearly. You cannot make up this stuff as you go along, just to suit yourself.

26

[QUOTE=whistlepig]
Perhaps you misread the statement which you qouted. Therefore, I’ll say it again:

“The library doesn’t want the hassle of storing the books between sales and setting up a sale. Not my call.” :smack:
[/QUOTE]

No, I did read it. You said you sort through the books and put them in the lobby for people to take. And I asked how, if that was what you did with them, there was some additional storage and set up involved. Your OP was confusing, and there’s no need to get pissy because I asked for clarification.

Your OP with respect to the legal issues has been answered, and if further discussion offends you then ask the mods to close the thread. Frankly, I’d think you’d be glad for feedback from others who’ve dealt with the same issue… sorry that my response hit a nerve.

27

If the jerk didn’t think it was wrong himself, why did he cut the stickers off of the covers? I’d say limiting people to three books a day would solve the problem – too many trips to build up his stock.

28

[QUOTE=cookeze]

So say you go to this guy’s yard sale and call the cops to meet you. And say that they actually show up. They see a guy selling books, and, I’ll assume, other things.
This is not a crime..
[/QUOTE]

It is if he does it more than twice a year without the proper license and zoning.

29

[QUOTE=DrDeth]
It is if he does it more than twice a year without the proper license and zoning.
[/QUOTE]

(sigh) I’m not a lawyer but I was wondering if there was a word for an infraction that was too small to be bothered with. I know there is and I heard it somewhere but it just escapes me because I am speechless.

I will be interested in hearing what the OP’s boss has to say about this. Whistlepig, please keep us informed.

Let me sum up here—notify the library director, call the cops, call code enforcement, check the zoning laws, write the newspaper, picket with a sign and call the taxman.

Do you guys do this all the time?

God help a person who has an overdue book.

30

[Stephen King]

Beware of the Library Pleethman…

[/Stephen King] :eek: :eek:

:wink:

31

[QUOTE=cookeze]
(sigh) I’m not a lawyer but I was wondering if there was a word for an infraction that was too small to be bothered with. I know there is and I heard it somewhere but it just escapes me because I am speechless.
.
[/QUOTE]

de minimis… short for de minimus non curat lex=the law does not concern itself with trifles. Like when you cut a cartoon out of the paper, make a xerox copy and give it to a friend. Technically, this is copyright infringment… but I wouldn’t worry about the Feds busting in during the night.

32

[QUOTE=Hello Again]
de minimis… short for de minimus non curat lex=the law does not concern itself with trifles.
[/QUOTE]

That’s it! Thanks!

33

[QUOTE=Hello Again]
Like when you cut a cartoon out of the paper, make a xerox copy and give it to a friend.
[/QUOTE]

And before someone says it … Hello Again’s use of “xerox” in this manner is not a trademark violation.

34

[QUOTE=jtgain]
I can stroll through the front door without a shirt, smoking a cigarette, in bare feet, demanding to take a free book? Cursing blacks, Jews, and homosexuals while burning an American flag, possessing drugs, bomb making material, and preaching Jihad among the infidels?

Waving a gun around with or without a permit, telling everyone that this library is simply an alien conspiracy designed to prevent Christian white males and some Bolivians from achieving our rightful purpose as leaders of the free world telling the undesirable races, religions, and colors to go to the library down the road.
[/QUOTE]

I think the point was that the library couldn’t (or shouldn’t be able to) impose such restrictions on one member of the public and no one else.

35

[QUOTE=Canadjun]
you did leave the books out for people to take without specifying any conditions
[/QUOTE]

For starters, I’d read everything about the adopt-a-book program and see if, indeed, there are no conditions. From the OP, I can’t tell, but the program might specify “for personal use,” for example.

Decisions about how offended to get and what measures to take should flow from the rules use to establish and administer the program.

It might be worth adding some conditions, if there are none at the moment…the library decisionmakers might want to take that up at the next meeting.

Sailboat

36

[QUOTE=Sailboat]
For starters, I’d read everything about the adopt-a-book program and see if, indeed, there are no conditions. From the OP, I can’t tell, but the program might specify “for personal use,” for example.
[/QUOTE]

Once you *give *something to someone (as opposed to say licensing it) you can’t stop him or her from selling it.

However, such rules might be used to say, I’m sorry, you’re no longer eligible for our giveaway program because you broke our rules.

37

[QUOTE=acsenray]
Once you *give *something to someone (as opposed to say licensing it) you can’t stop him or her from selling it.
[/QUOTE]

While that sounds like it would be true, it did not apply when I adopted a dog from the public shelter. They attached all kinds of conditions, including that I cannot give the dog or sell the dog to someone else, but must return her directly to the same shelter. Also shots and spaying, etc.

The public library giving away books to individuals seems to be roughly analagous to the public shelter giving away dogs. Presumably, if it’s determined to be in the public interest, conditions could be attached.

Sailboat

38

[QUOTE=cookeze]
(sigh) I’m not a lawyer but I was wondering if there was a word for an infraction that was too small to be bothered with. I know there is and I heard it somewhere but it just escapes me because I am speechless.
.
[/QUOTE]

It would normally be too small for a cop, but not for the Cities Code Enforcement Inspectors. That is what they do. And, although growing from twice to three times may not get any interest; having one very weekend does bring a host of problems, and will be shut down.

39

[QUOTE=Sailboat]
While that sounds like it would be true, it did not apply when I adopted a dog from the public shelter. They attached all kinds of conditions, including that I cannot give the dog or sell the dog to someone else, but must return her directly to the same shelter. Also shots and spaying, etc.

The public library giving away books to individuals seems to be roughly analagous to the public shelter giving away dogs. Presumably, if it’s determined to be in the public interest, conditions could be attached.

Sailboat
[/QUOTE]

The point is you need to set the conditions up front. Accepting those conditions was a requirement by the shelter for you to get the dog. They could not impose additional requirements on you after you received the dog. Similarly, OP’s library could post a “no resale” requirement, requiring any borrower to return the book rather than sell it, but they must make that clear at the time of the exchange (probably a sign on the rack or a sticker on the book).

40

[QUOTE=Sailboat]
While that sounds like it would be true, it did not apply when I adopted a dog from the public shelter. They attached all kinds of conditions, including that I cannot give the dog or sell the dog to someone else, but must return her directly to the same shelter. Also shots and spaying, etc.
[/quote]

And that is called a contract. And what if you breached the contract? They’d have to go to court and file a breach of contract claim to get back the dog. Or they’d just say “No more dogs for Sailboat.”

Actually, the way you describe it, I have doubts that such a contract would be enforceable. Once the dog was yours and you decided to give it away or sell it, it’s likely that the shelter wouldn’t be able to do anything about it, unless there was some city ordinance backing them up.

Books left in the hallway – take 'em if you want 'em? There’s no contract there.

You’d have to pass a whole new law. There’s nothing in common law that would allow for such conditions. The law is heavily biased against restrictions on “alienation,” meaning that if you own something, you’re allowed to dispose of it as you wish.