Steam summer sale 2016

[Disgruntled_Penguin]

@Airk

A properly designed RPG does NOT “adapt to your level”

Minor nitpick because I know what you’re saying but this is totally false. A properly designed RPG simply must be adapted for your level. It’s a crap DM who lets his players be wiped out early into a gaming session because they were over matched and went there anyway. Well, that was a fun friday night, not.

Had you said cRPG there would be more truth in it but again, not really true. It isn’t true as a principal tenet of the genre but simply because of the complexity of properly balancing challenge in real time with the current level of algorithms we use not because it’s the best way to handle an issue.

The problem is that a computer can’t realistically adapt to it’s game situation without the artificial controls becoming visible ruining the illusion. This is what the issue is not that players actually want to keep stumbling into death at every wrong turn because Good Game Design. A human can subtly alter peoples gaming plans and adjust content if needed realistically and can creatively create the illusion of full freedom while still keeping the session under control; a computer simply can’t do that with enough complexity that the pattern does not become apparent.

So, while right now, it may well be that free movement cRPG’s are the better choice now they are not by default the right way because they’re great designs but because they’re the best we can currently do. I applaud those who choose to try and change this. Sure, their early efforts haven’t gone well but you never get progress without the missteps so I feel a bit uncomfortable defending the status quo.

One thing that would help of course is to do away with optional saving. As a roguelike player let me say that what keeps me away from instadeath areas is because if I don’t succeed it’s game over. My choices have a real ‘time investment’ consequence that most cRPG’s lack. Very few people actually finish these games though ( sadly this is changing as the genre becomes more popular thus the new games are generally easier). Still, as long as game saving is a legit exploration tool, you’re not likely to get really good open world design without it being somewhat gamey.

[Kinthalis]

@Disgruntled_Penguin

Minor nitpick because I know what you’re saying but this is totally false. A properly designed RPG simply must be adapted for your level. It’s a crap DM who lets his players be wiped out early into a gaming session because they were over matched and went there anyway. Well, that was a fun friday night, not.

Had you said cRPG there would be more truth in it but again, not really true. It isn’t true as a principal tenet of the genre but simply because of the complexity of properly balancing challenge in real time with the current level of algorithms we use not because it’s the best way to handle an issue.

The problem is that a computer can’t realistically adapt to it’s game situation without the artificial controls becoming visible ruining the illusion. This is what the issue is not that players actually want to keep stumbling into death at every wrong turn because Good Game Design. A human can subtly alter peoples gaming plans and adjust content if needed realistically and can creatively create the illusion of full freedom while still keeping the session under control; a computer simply can’t do that with enough complexity that the pattern does not become apparent.

So, while right now, it may well be that free movement cRPG’s are the better choice now they are not by default the right way because they’re great designs but because they’re the best we can currently do. I applaud those who choose to try and change this. Sure, their early efforts haven’t gone well but you never get progress without the missteps so I feel a bit uncomfortable defending the status quo.

One thing that would help of course is to do away with optional saving. As a roguelike player let me say that what keeps me away from instadeath areas is because if I don’t succeed it’s game over. My choices have a real ‘time investment’ consequence that most cRPG’s lack. Very few people actually finish these games though ( sadly this is changing as the genre becomes more popular thus the new games are generally easier). Still, as long as game saving is a legit exploration tool, you’re not likely to get really good open world design without it being somewhat gamey.

You can’t have perma death in a 60 hour RPG. Your customers will be jumping off rooftops!

[Disgruntled_Penguin]

@Kinthalis

You can’t have perma death in a 60 hour RPG. Your customers will be jumping off rooftops!

Maybe, ever see the required hours a game like Angband or Nethack takes? They not only laugh but they laugh themselves into a coma about 60 hours of play. Remember, these games are the inspiration for Diablo. Who only plays 60 hours of that game? This truly is a genre where the game play trumps the story lines although Adom tries to straddle this. Even if you go extremely fast and are extremely lucky you can easily get to your 59th hour and do something stupid and die. Start over. This has not killed these games one bit. In fact, games include HARDCORE mode for just this gaming demographic.

t’s a more limited market now but roguelikes have stood the test of time and are growing in market share on steam. It’s far from a dead game type or a failed concept.

Now, I’m not saying save games need to go but they do add to the problem that I was addressing which is not one that really needs to be solved.

[Airk]

@Disgruntled_Penguin

Minor nitpick because I know what you’re saying but this is totally false. A properly designed RPG simply must be adapted for your level. It’s a crap DM who lets his players be wiped out early into a gaming session because they were over matched and went there anyway. Well, that was a fun friday night, not.

Okay, A) This is a discussion about CRPGs in the “Steam Summer Sale” thread. I don’t think anyone is confused and thinks I’m talking about tabletop. B) Actually, I disagree - if your PCs are clearly overmatched and you let them know that, and they go there anyway and die, they have no one but their own dumb selves to blame for going to the Tower of Unholy Dracoliches instead of the Mildly Unpleasant Goblin Woods. Now it is the GM’s job to let the PCs and players know that this is a really stupid idea, and that it will almost certainly result in their death, but I think that if the PCs do something stupid with full forewarning, it is the GM’s RESPONSIBILITY to see that they get the consequences they signed up for, and not rearrange the world to keep them from dying. If the PCs all decide to jump off a 1000’ cliff, do you spontaneously decide it was all an illusion so they don’t die?

The problem is that a computer can’t realistically adapt to it’s game situation without the artificial controls becoming visible ruining the illusion. This is what the issue is not that players actually want to keep stumbling into death at every wrong turn because Good Game Design. A human can subtly alter peoples gaming plans and adjust content if needed realistically and can creatively create the illusion of full freedom while still keeping the session under control; a computer simply can’t do that with enough complexity that the pattern does not become apparent.

Again, nonsense. If you create a CRPG, there are many, many ways to make sure the player doesn’t kill themselves that don’t involve adjust anything based on their level.

At the least subtle level, you can just wall off content. No going into the Caves of Monsters until you’ve gotten the magic spell to remove the boulder blocking the way, which can only be recieved by defeating the boss of the Inconvenient Swamp.

At the next level of subtlety, you can ramp up the difficulty of monsters slowly based on the area. Instead of going from the Plains of Peace with level 2 slimes to the Caverns of Slaughter with level 50 dark worms, you put terrain with level 5, 10, 20, etc monsters in between. So if the player starts going that way, they start running into monsters that become increasingly difficult to beat, and hopefully take the hint that maybe they should try somewhere else instead.

At a still higher level of subtlety, you can place warning signs in the game - whether that’s NPC dialogue, literal signs, the terrain getting more and more evil, etc, indicating to the player that hey, you are level 3, maybe you don’t want to go here right now.

So, while right now, it may well be that free movement cRPG’s are the better choice now they are not by default the right way because they’re great designs but because they’re the best we can currently do. I applaud those who choose to try and change this. Sure, their early efforts haven’t gone well but you never get progress without the missteps so I feel a bit uncomfortable defending the status quo.

It seems you don’t have a very good idea of what the status quo is.

One thing that would help of course is to do away with optional saving. As a roguelike player let me say that what keeps me away from instadeath areas is because if I don’t succeed it’s game over. My choices have a real ‘time investment’ consequence that most cRPG’s lack. Very few people actually finish these games though ( sadly this is changing as the genre becomes more popular thus the new games are generally easier). Still, as long as game saving is a legit exploration tool, you’re not likely to get really good open world design without it being somewhat gamey.

What’s wrong with a game being somewhat gamey? Not all games need to be the same. Heck, I would argue that it’s entirely possible to build a non-gamey game in this space, and I would also argue that most roguelikes are super gamey, so…

[Disgruntled_Penguin]

@Airk

Okay, A) This is a discussion about CRPGs in the “Steam Summer Sale” thread. I don’t think anyone is confused and thinks I’m talking about tabletop. B) Actually, I disagree - if your PCs are clearly overmatched and you let them know that, and they go there anyway and die, they have no one but their own dumb selves to blame for going to the Tower of Unholy Dracoliches instead of the Mildly Unpleasant Goblin Woods. Now it is the GM’s job to let the PCs and players know that this is a really stupid idea, and that it will almost certainly result in their death, but I think that if the PCs do something stupid with full forewarning, it is the GM’s RESPONSIBILITY to see that they get the consequences they signed up for, and not rearrange the world to keep them from dying. If the PCs all decide to jump off a 1000’ cliff, do you spontaneously decide it was all an illusion so they don’t die?

I’d be a proper GM and it’d never get to that. The difference between a GM and a computer is that in a computer game the entire story exists from minute one and it exists simultaneously. With a GM, you never have to do anything that you preplanned. You are the story teller and you control the whole deal. You’re not a slave to their desire to kill themselves.

A competent GM could have an event or a battle pop up to distract the players from their intentions. But really, you’re not making a sincere argument. You are stating that your players will just try and screw with you by jumping off a cliff. They won’t. That crap is pulled by computer gamers trying to see how far they can game the game. That’s why this issue exists. Computer gamers have to go to the overpowered area because they have to test the system and save games make the choice attractive.

Tabletop gamers are sharing an experience and most people won’t try to ruin that for other people, GM’s included. No one is trying to break the game or the immersion. The goal is for everyone to have fun and no one is out to punish players stupidity. It’s not an admirable gaming trait. At least that has been my experience. You may play with a more assholish group of people.

Again, nonsense. If you create a CRPG, there are many, many ways to make sure the player doesn’t kill themselves that don’t involve adjust anything based on their level.

Yes, there are diifferent ways but they all feel artificial and none are really superior to others except to personal preference.

At the least subtle level, you can just wall off content. No going into the Caves of Monsters until you’ve gotten the magic spell to remove the boulder blocking the way, which can only be recieved by defeating the boss of the Inconvenient Swamp.

That’s sooo subtle, no players ever notice this or complain about it. :rolleyes:

At the next level of subtlety, you can ramp up the difficulty of monsters slowly based on the area. Instead of going from the Plains of Peace with level 2 slimes to the Caverns of Slaughter with level 50 dark worms, you put terrain with level 5, 10, 20, etc monsters in between. So if the player starts going that way, they start running into monsters that become increasingly difficult to beat, and hopefully take the hint that maybe they should try somewhere else instead.

Not in an open world game you can’t. People will try and test you. Fallout New Vegas and the route north from the starting city is a perfect example. The game immediately becomes beat this challenge not enjoy role playing. It is what it is. It’s certainly not subtle.

At a still higher level of subtlety, you can place warning signs in the game - whether that’s NPC dialogue, literal signs, the terrain getting more and more evil, etc, indicating to the player that hey, you are level 3, maybe you don’t want to go here right now.

This is the best right here. You were talking about players jumping off cliffs and now you’re suggesting if only you’d pit up some wooden signs, they’d have decided not too. Very, very rich.

It seems you don’t have a very good idea of what the status quo is.

Well maybe, but since your whole point was to say the opposite and not argue any position at all, it’s clear to me that you don’t either so I’ll stick with my opinion. I don’t change my mind without some sort of argument being presented. You’re offering a Monty Python argument.

What’s wrong with a game being somewhat gamey? Not all games need to be the same. Heck, I would argue that it’s entirely possible to build a non-gamey game in this space, and I would also argue that most roguelikes are super gamey, so…

You apparently won’t argue them with reasons just more contrariness so it hardly matters what you argue. It’s empty argument simply to disagree. Weak sauce.

The bottom line may well be experience and your’s may be more current than mine. If players now a days are lemminging themselves off cliffs in droves and setting out to be deliberately disruptive and obtuse then I’m glad I don’t do tabletop gaming any more. It’s why I won’t play multiplayer on the computer. It appears that the assholes are winning. Enjoy your gaming in this environment. It used to be a lot more fun but again, that’s personal preference.

[SenorBeef]

Hey guys, tabletop RPGs are better than video game RPGs. I suggest you buy some tabletop RPGs in this steam sale.

[Jophiel]

Tabletop Simulator is $9.99!

Pick up the 5th Ed D&D pack from the mod workshop and argue about CRPGs inside your RPG on your computer!

[Airk]

Redacted.

[Airk]

Just going to summarize:

Roguelikes do not “adapt to the player’s level”. That would be AWFUL. A large part of the decision making process of a roguelike is “Do I go down to the next level where the dangers and rewards are greater?” Imagine if all the monsters on all the levels of the dungeon just auto-adjusted to the character’s level.

This has nothing to do with save states. It has to do with letting the player make informed decisions. They know that the next level will be incrementally more dangerous than the one they are on now, so they can decide if they are ready to go down. And if they decide to just go down ten sets of stairs one after the other because they happened to run into the right away, it’s not the game’s fault if they run into monsters they’re not ready for and they die. That was an informed decision, they made it, and it has consequences. The game does not and should not adjust the difficulty to “fix” this.

[Jophiel]

You can get a copy of Metal Gear Solid: The Phantom Pain for $22.xx (£16.66) from Gamesplanet. Comes with a free copy of MGS: Ground Zeroes as well, for less money than Steam has Phantom Pain alone on sale for.

[Lok]

Finally broke down & got the bundle of the Steam Controller & Link. My computer is pretty high powered, but my monitor sucks, & I have a 51" plasma TV right across the room. Going to see how Wasteland 2 and Assassin’s Creed look on it.

[Kinthalis]

@Lok

Finally broke down & got the bundle of the Steam Controller & Link. My computer is pretty high powered, but my monitor sucks, & I have a 51" plasma TV right across the room. Going to see how Wasteland 2 and Assassin’s Creed look on it.

The steamlink works best with a wired connection, FYI. If you don’t have a handy, nearby network connection, some people are getting good results with a powerline network adapter.

[Jophiel]

The BioShock games are being remastered

Well, not so much Infinite since that was recent and they’re happy with how it looks but BS1, BS2 and Minerva’s Den are seeing remastered editions this September and owners of the originals will receive the remastered versions for free. So this sale is a good time to buy the originals for cheap if you don’t have them and get the remaster in a few months versus paying $60.

Working with Blind Squirrel Games, we’ve remastered BioShock, BioShock 2, and BioShock Infinite making them look better than ever*. BioShock: The Collection brings the three titles together for the first time, complete with all single-player DLC** and a never-before-seen video series, “Director’s Commentary: Imagining BioShock,” which includes insights from Ken Levine – over $100 of content – for only $59.99. It’s a circus of values! And if you already own BioShock, BioShock 2, and/or Minerva’s Den on Steam, you will be able to upgrade to the remastered version of the respective title(s) for free after release. It’s a circus of values!

[Lok]

@Kinthalis

The steamlink works best with a wired connection, FYI. If you don’t have a handy, nearby network connection, some people are getting good results with a powerline network adapter.

Figured it might need a line ran. My router is across the room, so if I need to I can run something.

[SenorBeef]

Unlike in previous sales, I feel like I have to talk myself into buying something instead of talking myself out of buying everything. There’s just not much out there at a price point that appeals.

I think I’m going to grab Arma 3, Verdun - which are both kinda silly purchases considering I’m up to my neck in shooters at the moment.

Maybe one of the dark souls games. Never played any - should I start with 1 for $5 or 2 / scholar of the first sin for $13?

I kinda want to get EU4, but I don’t like getting a base game when there are several expansions out, but since they never put them together in a big discounted complete pack… then I’m either getting the bare game for $10 or spending $50 on everything and I always end up deciding to do neither. Which EU4 expansions are worthwhile?

I’ve been craving some sort of piratey game for a long time but I’m worried Black Flag will be the 4th AC game I own but never play. There’s a mount and blade mod/offshoot/conversion called Carribean! Blood and Gold but like everything else it’s about twice as much as I’m willing to pay.

I apparently will never own Rome 2: Total War. I’ve wanted it for a while, but it was $15 over a year and a half ago and I decided to wait until it was a little cheaper, but it never budged from $15. So now I’d feel dumb if I buy it now at the price I could’ve had it for almost 2 years ago. Meanwhile, its successor Atilla is only $11, but Rome is more expensive. Just to spite me.

Others I’m considering, looking for feedback: Anno 2070 $5, Audiosurf 2 $5 (or similar Riff Racer for 4), Maybe Ark for $17, beamng.drive for $18 but I’m not sure if that’s actually ever going anywhere besides a fun crash sandbox, Telltale Game of Thrones for $7. My friend tells me I’d like Valkyria Chronicles even though I ate japanese nonsense.

There are about 30 games on my list that I would buy if they were $5 but they’re $10-20. And they’re the sort of things that would’ve been $5 in previous sales.

[RandMcnally]

I own all the EU expansions and I think they’re all worthwhile, but I’m really into those types of games. What might be useful is have your budget and buy from oldest to newest until you run out of money.

[Jophiel]

Indie Gala is giving away a copy of “Between Me & the Night” with any purchase of $4 or more from their store (bundles don’t count). It’s a well reviewed game and is currently $7.49 on Steam at 50% off. A number of IG’s sale prices match Steam’s so it might be worth looking if you were going to buy something anyway. You also get a “scratch card” (i.e. free random game) with every purchase – I got Intake.

So, for buying Kholat for the same $7.49 price it is on Steam, I got Kholat, Between Me & the Night and Intake. Not a bad deal at all.

[Lok]

Got my Controller and Link when I got home Friday. Controller is nice, solid and we’ll built, pretty easy to use, just a matter of learning the muscle memory and setting up stuff for non-controller games.

The Link, turns on and connects to my network. Unfortunately, it doesn’t talk to my computer. Using ethernet connection or wifi, it can’t see my computer at all. It can connect to the Internet, it did an automatic update as soon as I connected it. Now it’s wait for Steam support to get back to me, which means next weekend, since I leave tonight for Atlanta.

[furryman]

@Jophiel

The BioShock games are being remastered

Well, not so much Infinite since that was recent and they’re happy with how it looks but BS1, BS2 and Minerva’s Den are seeing remastered editions this September and owners of the originals will receive the remastered versions for free. So this sale is a good time to buy the originals for cheap if you don’t have them and get the remaster in a few months versus paying $60.

Totally cool. Wish they’d give Half Life: Black Mesa away for free to owners of the original Half Life.

[SenorBeef]

Not really the same thing since it’s not the same people at all. Plus it was basically a complete re-creation, not just going back and re-using higher res assets they already made and maybe tweaking some shaders and lighting.