So I was pondering some of the deeper questions of our time this morning . . . why do I feel less nauseous when my head is facing the ceiling as opposed to the wall, what I could have eaten to do this to me, and how far away a star (or other bright shiny thing) would have had to be from Earth to cause its position in the sky to shift as much as it did in the Bible. Like 45 degrees or so.
At the rate of 15 miles a day for two weeks, we’re talking 210 miles. I don’t know what angle they saw it at initially, but it was supposedly right over them when they got there. I would hazard a guess that it changed 45 degrees during that time. And I have no earthly idea if it moved or not during the trek to Christ (and please let’s assume, for the sake of me not getting a massive headache, that Christ was born as is described in the Bible).
I don’t know how to handle the question of seasons, as modern thought has JC being born in October or so, and traditional thought placed his birth in the dead of winter, so to speak. Does it really matter that much?
So my question, I think, is this: how far above the earth would such a thing have to be for the observer’s moving 210 miles to effect a 45 degree shift in relative placement in the sun? Or does this make sense at all?
Without attempting to deal with the curvature of the earth (210 miles of a ~25,000 mile diameter is not going to make that much difference) or with any atmospheric effects on line of sight (once again, negligible), one solution is 210 miles.
Doesn’t really work for any stars I know of. A (much) smaller change in angle than 45º to 90º, perhaps?
I know that when the guys got there, the star was right overhead. And they were astronomers. I don’t recall an angle being cited in the Bible, though it’s been a while since I read relevant passages and my head hurts too much to look one up.
Nope, I don’t believe that’s the question I answered. I thought (still think) you meant how high up would the object have to be to move across the sky from apparent angle x of initial observation to directly overhead?
Anyway, if you make it just one degree of movement, and sticking with planar geometry, you can only put it a little over 12 thousand miles up.
But, somebody else needs to come along and address what I have not, that being what two weeks of celestial movement might accomplish if the body were much further away.
I really need to find out what I was smoking. I think my hands might have been typing independently of my brain (such as it is right now) then.
That is what I meant. Score one for knowing my question even when I couldn’t put it into words:)
I’m thinking 45 degrees is a bit much, myself. But there would need to be a discernible amount of movement, and 1 degree seems a bit too little even for astronomers to correctly interpret.
What would complicate this problem dramatically is if the question of the body in question moving during this time is brought into play. Then, I think, we can have it significantly higher indeed . . . possibly even as far away as a planet, though I have no idea if that would be possible.
At a typical velocity of ~40 k/s or 24 miles/sec the object would move ~1,209,600 miles in two weeks. The earthly journey of 210 miles would have virtually no effect on the angle of the object with respect to the horizon other than that resulting from moving about 4 degrees around on the surface of a sphere. Parallax effects would be negligable for anything not in ~earth orbit.
In all probability, the “wise men” of the Bible were astrologers, or at least very familiar with astrology. As it happens, there was a dramatic set of astrological alignments in the early spring of 6 b.c.e. As “wise men”, very likely of Babylonian origin or education they would have plenty of time to travel to any likely location, say, Nazareth. They would have had months, if not years, to make thier travel plans so as to arrive at the appropriate place at the appropriate time.
So I suspect that the legend of following a star as a bright object in the sky derives from a misunderstanding. The “wise men” knew that something major was going to happen, likely suspected it was a birth. How they might have determined that Nazareth was the place to be? Not a clue, but there still remains any number of arcane astrological traditions for divining locations, directions, etc.
It was simply misunderstood as “following a star”. Either that, or it just makes for a better story.
being knowledgeable about celestial navigation I can answer this… if you give me a clear problem to resolve. So, let’s see… Let us assume you see a star directly north of you in the sky. At the same instant an observer 210 miles north of you (210 miles closer) would see it about 3 degress closer to the zenith, that is 42 degrees of Zenith distance instead of the 45 you see. So if the other observer sees it overhead, the 42 degrees are parallax. For him the parallax is zero, for you it is 42 degrees.
In other words, for him the object is really overhead (H=90). If it were infinitely far away, for you it would be only 3 degrees from the zenith (H=87).
Now you can easily draw schematic and determine how far from the center of the earth the object is… i’ll give someone a chance of doing it… or do I have to do everything around here?
i would say traveling 15 miles /day is not a great average… 20 or 25 sounds more like it if you are trying to get there. OTH, it would be along roads and not as the crow flies.
Anyway, I am not going to post the entire demonstration, I’ll leave that to someone else, but the answer is an object located about 233 miles above the surface of the earth would appear directly overhead to an observer directly under it (duh!) and at about H=45 for an observer located about 210 statute miles away from the first observer.
I believe the object the Wise Men saw was static over one point and that is why they went there. It’s kind of hard to follow a star which will not sit still.
That is why in my example, rather than have the observer move, I have two observers take simultaneous observations. Assuming a static object would yield the same result but simultaneous observations are more credible than static objects in the sky… unless you are a wise man…
The question is a lot simpler than it appears. If the ‘star’ always seemed to be directly over Bethlehem (in order to serve as a beacon), then it must have been in a geostationary orbit, which puts it at a height of about 36,000 km or 20,000 miles. Oops, one problem-geostationary orbits must be equatorial, so Bethlehem must have been in Africa, about 2500 miles south of the currently extant town of that name.
The Greek magoi roughly translates to astrologer, which is why I said they were astronomers, since what that term meant then is roughly equivalent to the relevant parts of what ours now means. IOW, parts of the old “astrologer” correspond to “astronomer” today.
Citation, please?
The account I have says they made the trip in two weeks, roughly. And that they were not given months to plan.
Better story or not, you’ve yet to provide evidence for your account:)
In the OP, BTW, I suggested that we stick to what we “know” to be true rather than speculation without provided facts to back them up.
Well, I must have misunderstood your OP as it seems full of assumptions:
The facts that we know show it is imposible for a celestial object to be above Israel and not move. So I guess that is the answer to your question: It is impossible.
If the celestial object happened to have a decent propulsion system attached to it, it wouldn’t difficult to maintain a stationary position 210 miles over Israel, or any other point on earth for that matter.
Squink, can you define “decent”? Can you explain what kind of propulsion system would allow a lighthouse to hover about 200 miles over the surface for two weeks? can you tell me who makes them and where can I buy them? Better still, can you tell me who made them 2000 years ago?
The Star of Bethlehem, cited in the Gospel of St. Matthew, has been a mystery for 2,000 years. It is unlikely to have been a comet or a super nova, as either would have been widely interpreted as an ill omen and caused great public concern. Comets were popularly associated with the deaths of Julius Caesar in 44 B.C., and Nero in 66 A.D., as well as the Norman conquest of England in 1066 A.D. However, the Magi’s quest for a new “King of the Jews” seems to have taken Herod the Great and his court completely by surprise.
In "The Bible as History", Werneer Keller speculated that the "star" may have been a conjunction (visual alignment) of the planets Jupiter and Saturn within the constellation, Pisces (traditionally associated with Israel). That it was seen "in the east" may refer to its initial appearance in the eastern pre-dawn sky. If, as it is largely supposed, the Magi were scholars, who had studied at the ancient school of astrology at Sippar, it would have been just the sort of "sign" they would have sought.
In the year we reckon as 7 B.C., such a conjunction occured three times. The first took place on the morning of May 29th. Summer not being a particularly good time to cross the desert, the Magi may have started out on its second appearance, October 3rd (that year, the Jewish Day of Atonement) thus giving them time to reach Jerusalem in time for the third conjunction on the evening of December 4th. The ascending "star" would have lay directly in front of them, as they traveled the Hebron road from Jerusalem to Bethlehem. "...and behold, the star which they saw in the east, went before them, till it came and stood over where the young child was." (Matthew 2:9b)
According to Jewish historian Flavius Josephus, about that time it was circulated among the Jews that a sign from heaven had announced the coming of a new Jewish king.
It seems to me that you guys are missing a very important point about the sky… first of all, it takes TIME to travel and planets MOVE over time to away or towards conjunction. Moreover, the night sky rotates around the north star which changes the actual position of all objects in the sky over the course of the night. In fact, if you look at the road to Bethlehem, it leads south which is the direction the conjunction would have been facing on December 4th, and then as the sky rotated, it would eventually settle in the southwest, or the relative position of Bethlehem from the road. What we’re talking about is PEOPLE and the earth moving, not some low orbitting star.
This just goes to show that people today have no sense of what’s above them in the night sky. Pitiful, really.
“the star which they saw in the east, went before them, till it came and stood over where the young child was.”
The trouble is that planets won’t “stand” directly overhead from any point on earth, the planets rotation keeps changing the angles. Also, you cannot change a planets position relative to the fixed stars by walking about on the surface of the planet, they are simply too far away. The position of planets in the sky could be used to guide the wisemen in the direction of Bethlehem, and the city would be directly under the ecliptic twice a year, but to point out a specific location you still need either a good watch, or something that isn’t subject to the rotation of the celestial sphere. An object suspended a couple hundred miles above the earth would serve nicely. Then again, maybe I’m taking the words “stood over” too literally, in which case the conjunctions you mention would work just fine.
Here’s a nice method of suspending something a couple hundred miles above the earth without having it in orbit: Project Orion: Its Life, Death, and Possible Rebirth The bombs going off would even supply a nice twinkly effect
I think part of the problem is that some people here are trying to use astronomical facts and figures that have been passed down through oral tradition and several written translations by people who had political agendas and no clue about the motions of the heavens.
To try and make any calculations based on these numbers is a futile and pointless effort. Period. It is not an exact science, and any attempt to make it so is wishful at best.
And if you want to debate literal interpretations of scripture, then take it to GD.
Now, that said, if you want to analyze it qualitatively, let’s do so:
The apparent position of the object changed. The Magi were smart enough in the ways of the stars and planets to realize the object moved.
So what transient astronomical objects can move several degrees across the sky within a matter of weeks? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?
My mom drove one in the early 70’s. It was made by Mercury.
