Isn’t there another thread round here about welfare moms neglecting their kids, just dropping multitudes of little money magnets so mommy can afford to get trashed again? That’s also Darwinism at work, multiple births canceling poor survival rates, it’s kept poverty stricken societies fully stocked for centuries.
The willingness to have children (or lack of willingness to prevent pregnancy) has absolutely no connection fitness of the parent - to suggest otherwise is ridiculous in the face of current child abuse statistics. Fertility in no way guarantees love or the ability to care for a child.
Your determination to see the issue in such stark terms takes a minor aspect of it (there is an element of clinical judgment that treats men and women differently) and over-simplifies it.
I am uninterested in talking you out of such a simplistic approach, but it’s mostly wrong.
First of all, in the US physicians are compensated for doing procedures. If they are turning down procedures, it merits pointing out that they are costing themselves income by doing so. While that may not justify it, it should weigh into the equation of their motivation.
Second, I have seen no data suggestig that male physicians approach the decision differently from female ones. Until such data are presented, your assumption that the problem is “sexism”–whatever that means, seems a bit premature. I’ve been a physician for 25 years and human for a lot longer than that. Men and women are different. It’s easy to holler sexism, but unless you can pull up a study showing post-vasectomy regret is also at least 20%, guess what?–the distinctive approach between men and women would appear justified. Just for grins, here’s a nice post-vasectomy regret story for you: Slot Resmi Gacor dan Slot Rtp tinggi Paling Akurat 2023 I might add that the mechanism of expressing regret–suck it up and move on; get weepy and let it turn into a Life Event–varies between sexes as well. The physician is the one left hold the bag, and Ob-Gyns take it on the chin more than Urologists, I suspect.
I confess some irritation at your oversimplification, but here’s the main point: it just may be that physicians refusing to sterilize young nulliparous women are trying to make the best judgment they can, in the patient’s interest. They may be wrong, and it may be frustrating to the patient, but to be so dismissive about their motivation and/or thought process reflects a shallow perspective devoid of any understanding of what it feels like to be on the physician’s side of the equation.
Medical practice and judgment changes slowly. That doesn’t mean there is some superficial reason for current practice.
And that’s the problem. It’s not a doctor’s place to make decisions about my future because they think they know better than me what is in my best interest.
It’s their job to make sure that I understand the medical implications of what I have asked for, and that I’ve given consent for the procedure.
I used to have people who made decisions for me based on what they thought was in my best interest. Those people were called parents, and their job ended when I was 18.
I’m pretty clear on their motiviation. That’s what makes it all the more disgusting. If their motivation was actually based on some sort of medical fact, I’d be a lot more willing to accept it. The only thing worse than the fact that these doctors (and the female ones have been worse for me) think they have some parental right to decide what’s best for me is that anyone thinks I should sympathize with them.
Where does anyone, doctor or not, get off telling me that I do not have the absolute right to self-determination when it comes to my reproductive system?
Holy shit, I would have read that doctor the riot act.
And Kanicbird, Rune, what about people like me, who have medical reaons, perhaps, for wanting to be sterilized?* It might not be safe for them to bear children. In that case, what’s wrong with having a tubal and then adopting? If I ever decide to have children, that would most likely be my option.
*BTW, this is totally hypothetical. I’m not currently seeking to be sterilized, I’m just saying if I ever get married and/or decide to have kids, this would be my only option. My only options would be to stop taking my meds and/or pass along birth defects to my child. Neither of which is an option I’m willing to take.
What does that to do with anything ? Both genders have a long history of engaging in sexism against their own gender. That’s one of the factors that makes it so persistent.
And have you actually been reading this thread ? Some of the women here have been insulted and patronized to their face on this.
Oh, garbage. People regret things all the time. BOTH genders do. And that doesn’t explain why they drag their feet even in cases of medical need.
No, it’s that I simply don’t care. And I don’t sympathize with people who behave in such a manner. Nor do I see any reason to give them the benefit of the doubt, any more than I would people who, say, refused black people a medical procedure because “they might regret it later”.
Or it means that humanity will continue to breed and breed and breed itself into overpopulation and collapse. And since when has a desire for children had anything to do with loving them, or even treating them well ?
Are you a doctor? If so, and that’s what you are basing your decisions for women on regarding their reproductive health, than I suppose that’s you’re right. But if you’re not, so? What’s that got to do with it? Not everyone veiws the bible as their authority.
And I am beyond happy that I didn’t have to go through this to have my hysterectomy at 40 and childless. I can’t imagine what you all go through. I do believe I’d have gone ballistic. I’m also grateful for the men in this thread who support women who wish to remain childless. Thank you.
I agree there should be clear and reasonable criteria, just like there are for trans-gender surgeries.
But I’m not buying all of these arguments.
The first reason is that, as mentioned before, there many birth control options. It would be a rare woman who could not tolerate hormonal birth control AND all of the variety of barrier methods available. Any doctor is always going to push non-invasive and reversible options over major surgery no matter what the problem is. Only when it becomes clear that nothing else is going to work will they look towards such major procedures.
It’s worth noting that for men there is only one birth control option, and it comes with some major drawbacks. A man who does not wish to have a child does not have the plethora of options that we have. I imagine if a woman’s only other option had such problems we would see a lot more acceptance of surgical sterilization. And imagine if men had more options we wouldn’t be as quick to cut.
Another is indeed social. I’m 27 years old and old enough to know myself pretty well. And if I want to go to a plastic surgeon and get a nose job there would be no problem. But if I wanted to get, say, an un-removable second nose installed on my face, the surgeon would probably not want to do it. That would have major repercussions in my life. Even if I had some really good reasons for wanting that. The fact remains that it would run a very good chance of keeping me from living “a normal life” and I would run a good chance of regretting it. The surgeon would no doubt want to steer me towards a removable prosthetic nose or something, even if that was less convenient for me. Nobody wants to do an unnecessary, irreversible life-altering procedure.
One reason why women who already have children have an easier time is that they are more likely to have made a decision with an established partner and will be less likely to face the changes of circumstances and heart that might lead to regret.
By no means do I believe “a woman’s natural place is childbirth” and I’m not sure that I want to have children myself. But I think there are some very reasonable reasons to look at surgical sterilization as a last resort.
In my opinion, you have grossly misunderstood the nature of sexism. Women, as much as men, are culpable of adhering to sexist attitudes, both being influenced by the society in which they are raised. Indeed, women physicians can be worse. Similar to what Catsix mentioned, the women in a support group I used to attend for endometriosis who were childless had the hardest time getting a hysterectomy from a female doctor. The consensus among them seemed to be that a woman with children has a harder time believing that another woman might not really want children. Anecdotally, one of these women told me that the female doctor tsk tsk’d her, and said “When I was your age, I didn’t want children either, but trust me, you’ll change your mind”. This woman was 30, so it’s not as though she was some spring chicken.
I think the problem is that the reasoning is very much not superficial. It would be foolish to suggest that long held and deeply embedded societal norms are superficial. My argument is that they are wrong, and that we have progressed to the point where medical practice needs to change.
I would like to second Catsix in her statement here. I turn 30 in June, and I have never desired a child. My mother remembers me, at age six, being incredibly disinterested in babies – something she thought odd at the time, since most girls she knew loved babies. She loves to tell this story about a friend bringing over their new bouncing baby boy, and me, at the ripe old age of six, walking into the room, wrinkling up my nose, saying “gross” and marching out. I did not babysit as a child. I started telling people I’d never have a baby when I was 12, and I haven’t let up since. I have never changed a diaper. I have held a newborn/baby once, and did not get all weepy, emotional or suddenly decide that I wanted one. My friends, who do want children or have children, do this frequently. We’ll be walking down the street and I’ll hear a chorus of “awwwws” because some chubby cutie has done something particularly adorable that I’ve been utterly oblivious to. My SIL is pregnant right now, and I’m excited to have a nephew, but the entire pregnancy thing squicks me out.
Now, I don’t hate kids. I don’t particularly covet spending time with them, but I don’t dislike them either. I quite like children old enough to read to, or read with, and at around age 12, they start to seem a little more interesting to me. I would not necessarily turn away from a prospective partner who had children. But, I emphatically do not want one of my own, and I know this in the same ways** Catsix** mentioned.
Another point I’d like to raise that is tangential to the above. Earlier, someone in the thread (and on preview, below) mentioned that the fact that there are other viable and non-invasive methods of birth control might be a reason for not allowing elective sterilization without considerable hurdle jumping. This, I think, is terribly short-sighted and does not at all consider the well-being of the patient long term. First, what are the long-term consequences of using hormonal birth control until menopause? Second, these are far from 100%, especially if you opt not to use hormonal methods and elect to use barrier methods. Third, constantly having to worry about birth control for the 30+ years of your sexually active life when there is a viable permanent solution just because you “might change your mind” down the road is a ridiculous solution. When I lost my virginity, I was paranoid and excessive about birth control. With every partner I have had since then, I have been incredibly vigilant. I think about birth control more than any of my friends do, because I do not have that thought that “if I get pregnant, it won’t be ideal but it won’t be that bad either.” For me, it would be devastating. While I am very much pro-choice, I am not certain I would have the strength to make the decision to terminate and I don’t ever want to have to be in that position. I also don’t think that relying on abortion as a backup to birth control when there is a far better solution remotely comes close to being a solution. So, in the long term, a sterilization procedure seems like a pretty minor way to fix this unyielding concern that my damn uterus might someday betray me (tongue in cheek of course, I don’t actually fear my lady bits).
This is a fascinating question for me, since I’m a childless male considering a vasectomy and I run into the “But what if you change your mind?” thing as well.
You raise an interesting point. We should also consider the fact that voluntary sterilization patients might not actually lead happier, more fulfilling, and/or all-around better lives with children later–and what of the hypothetical children, who might themselves not lead happy, productive, fulfilling lives? If we start playing guessing games and peering into our crystal ball, we should be willing to drop the other shoe. When we realize that it doesn’t sound much better when it hits the ground, we can go back to trusting a generally sane, rational adult to make his/her own healthcare decisions.
In fact, I would go a step further and say that, from a public health perspective, it’s morally questionable to deny sterilization to any sane/rational adult who wants it. With a top-heavy distribution of wealth and a world food and water crisis, we should be more than willing to allow adults the choice not to participate in the problem.
That raises another question: Do childless men (especially young ones) have problems getting a vasectomy? Society in general certainly hammers home the idea that we’ll regret it later and want kids, but I have no idea whether doctors do. (I know I said that I’m considering the procedure, but I’m waiting a few years because my interest has been fairly recent.)
:eek:
The only way I can see this as even remotely acceptable in a professional environment is if the doctor meant “meet a nice man who wants kids, who you love so much that you would consider revisiting the question because he really, really wants kids and you can’t see yourself being with anyone else”. Even then, though, how is that a surgeon’s business?
Early 20s? You can do it before you’re in high school, if you and your family are really, really, really sure. Isn’t sterilization assumed as a side effect of most sex change procedures?
Thanks for shitting in the thread. Please wipe before you leave, especially if you intend to let the door hit you on the ass.
Depends on how young is young. When I spoke with the folks at Planned Parenthood in Canada, the list they gave me included doctors willing to perform vasectomies, and I asked them if it was difficult for men to get the procedure done. They indicated that, for young men, multiple visits may be necessary but not always. I’d suggest planting the seed now – so to speak. I would tell your doctor that you’re thinking about it, but want to give it a few years to be sure, that way it won’t come “out of the blue”.
I think this was the intent, sort of. He didn’t seem to budge when I explained that any man I wind up with learns very early on that I’m not the childbearing kind. It’s one of the critical “getting to know you” pieces I insert very early into dialogue in a new relationship, so the man I fall in love with would surely support this fundamental lifestyle choice that I have made, or it wouldn’t be fair to either of us. It would be highly unfair of me to about face on such a fundamental decision, and it would be just as unfair of my partner to expect it of me. The doctor didn’t buy this though. I think he was a really nice man who seriously believed I hadn’t found my soul mate yet.
Who in the world are you dealing with, and what exactly were you told?
You have the absolute right to change physicians, specialists included, and the only limiting factors are practical ones: the number of specialists in that field in your area and their waiting lists. If physicians are being unprofessional to you because you want to change physicians, that’s exactly what they’re doing: being unprofessional. Unless I’m very much mistaken, this has nothing to do with health policy in Canada or B.C.
I suspect it’s not a policy issue but more indicative of a small town community, where specialists are few and far between and wait lists are long. I’ve never “chosen” my doctor - I’ve always just wound up with the specialist they assigned me to. For the most part, it works, except for this one fellow. I did switch with relatively little inconvenience, except for the talk from the doctor who suggested it was uncommon. Perhaps it is a rural/small town versus urban divide here?
That makes sense, since there is likely to simply be a very small number of specialists practising any given specialty in a small town. So less a matter of lacking freedom of choice than having a limited pool of choices. Admittedly the result is the same, but I do have to spend time convincing people that no, we aren’t assigned a doctor by the government, and yes, if you think your doctor is a cock, you can tell him/her to take a hike.
I agree with what you’ve said. I didn’t think of my statement in the larger context of the common misunderstandings of our universal healthcare . In retrospect, I should have framed my anecdote a little more clearly.
Why? That’s not rude. Not that it has much relevance to not wanting children. Do very many gay or lesbians regularly change they mind later on in life and become hetros? No, probably not. A large number of people who don’t want children do change their mind though.
Perhaps. Although I guess for those not having and not wanting children, it doesn’t matter much either way.
I assume, that on average people who don’t want to be parents are less loving parents than people who have the children they wish.
I researched this fairly thoroughly approximately 7 years ago and thought I’d dig up the info again, in response to some of the posts regarding the issue of regret. There isn’t a lot of firm data out there, however I was able to find these interesting and relevant articles:
I had the Essure procedure done 6 years ago, when I was 24 and childless. I consider it the best thing I have ever done.
To those who say “I didn’t want children when I was younger either, but now…”. I’ve wanted to be sterile since I knew it was possible. I researched it fairly thoroughly over a period of two years (with gaps, to give myself some mental space from it too). If you never thought about being sterilised, let alone seriously researched it and did extended soul-searching, perhaps you might consider that your “I didn’t want children” was of a different quality or intensity than the “I don’t want children” that some of us are thinking and feeling?
If lawsuits was the problem, why would someone in a country where suits for medical malpractice are rare (Spain, and the year was 1993 when she finally got the procedure) also refuse to do it?
The patient in question was 40yo when she finally got her tubes tied; she had two children from a marriage whose only two positives were those two children; she became an alcoholic after the divorce. Her second husband (married in 1996) is so anti-children that he’s never wanted to be any kind of responsibility figure to his wife’s children.
Other anti-baby methods aren’t 100% effective and have side effects which in some cases can be extremely nasty. Many women in my mother’s side of the family have had serious problems with hormonal medications; Mom got hospitalized for several days as a result of her bad reaction to HRT. Rune, one of the biggest surprises of parenthood is that you never have the children you wish. You may have the amount you wished, but they’re never the way the parents wanted.