Should anyone who wants to get 'fixed' be able to?

Great Debates
1

Should a woman, no matter the age(esp if she’s over 18) be able to get their tubes tied or a hysterectomy without any real medical reason other than the fact that she doesn’t want to have kids? I think yes but apparently from what I’ve found out, a lot of doctors say no. Over the last 3-4 years, CG and I have been going back and forth over whether or not we want kids and we’ve come to the decision that we will never be able to afford them. I dislike the traditional birth control methods (the Pill,condoms,diaphragms,etc) and would like to get my tubes tied. But the three different dr’s I’ve talked to said I’d have to have medical reason to get them tied or I’d already have to have kids. WTF is up with that? It’s not fair,IMHO, to make a woman who’s already made up her mind she doesn’t want kids suffer through traditional birth control (which in the end…by the time she gets to menopause)is far more expensive than having the tubes tied. Some women can’t take the Pill (me included) because of reactions their body has to it. They dislike condoms and diaphragms are too annoying to deal with(or at least I know mine was when I had one). What’s a girl to do, other than stop having sex altogether?

IDBB

2

Yes, you should.

I find this even more annoying because I have several single with no children male friends who have been clipped at fairly young ages.

Give Planned Parenthood a call. They may be able to refer you to a doctor who will tie tubes on a young childless woman. Or you look into having your husband fixed. Its a much easier and less expensive operation (but he will probably walk like he spent too much time on a horse for a day or so).

3

Arrogant Doctors, its none of their business.

Dangerosa seems to have a good idea with planed parenthood.

Good Luck

4

I thought about that and I"ve also t hought about getting CG fixed but he is rather adamant that he doesn’t want to be fixed.He insists that if anyone get fixed it should be me with no threat to his manhood whatsoever.I find this totally laughable. I don’t quite understand his concern but then again it is his choice.I just find it annoying that no doctors will ‘fix’ me. One even went so far as to tell me I wasn’t ‘broken’ so there was no need for me to be ‘fixed’. Urgh.
Oh well…
It may be TMI but…I think good old Mother Nature has fixed ONE of us already anyway. I was only on the Pill for six months when we first got married before I got off of it due to health reasons.CG refuses to wear condoms(he’s allergic to latex and so am I) and in four years, I have as yet to get pregnant when by all laws of statistics I should have gotten pregnant at least once.

IDBB

5

Planned parenthood is good. I have a child by that method. Choice is good. I had a vasectomy – procedure is simple and quick; have day-surgery, go home, walk very carefully and bowlegged for a few days, carry on – not long after his birth. Also discussed and planned before the birth. One of the few sensible things I have done in this life, IMHO.

I’m divorced now. And still relatively young. Any regrets? Not really. A whim or a wish now and then. And hey, if I ever do really come (pun not intended) to regret it, I can always try having it reversed. There’s a very slim chance it would work. For a vasectomy.

So, yeah, I’m all about choice in this one. And, as I’ve implied, I think the more sensible choice (in a monogamous relationship – other forms get complicated on this issue [that one’s unintended, too]) is for the male to get fixed.

It has not lessened my fun in any way.

6

What do you mean when you say “be able to”?

Should sterilization be legal for anyone at any age? I’d say hell, no–You shouldn’t be able to have your minor child sterilized unless that is an unfortunate, inevitable consequnse of some medical procedure.

Do you mean: should sterilization be legal for anyone over 18? Hell, yes.

Do you mean: “Should doctors who perform sterilizations be legally prohibited from refusing clients?” Hell, no. If a doctor feels like a patient is making a poor decision, I think they have every right to not be a part of it.

Do you mean “Is it morally correct for a doctor to refuse to preform a sterilization if they feel it is a bad decision?” I don’t have a problem with this. I know a lot of people (including myself) who were “sure” of many, many things on their 18th birthdays who changed their minds completly by their 20th birthday and changed them completly again by the time they were 22. If I were a doctor, I would be hesitant to perform such surgury on at 18 year old unless they had a very compelling reason. On the other hand, that 18 year old has every right to keep shopping around for a doctor who will perform the surgury.

Do you mean “Should the government pay for the sterilization of anyone who requests it?” That’s a whole can of worms that I don’t want to open.

7

Don’t count on being infertile. One of my girlfriends didn’t use birth control from the time she was fifteen until she was 24. At 24 she started birth control (because she got herself into a relationship with a guy with a brain), at 32 went off birth control when her and guy with a brain were married (a long time) and decided to try for kids, and she was a mom at 33.

I went off birth control at 27 to have my children. Adopted after going through infertility treatment, and then got a surprise at 32.

Your fertility could be spike suddenly. I have heard stories about people who adopted after years of inferility who had a few bio kids later. And I just ran into a woman who thought she was infertile until her surprise - at 46.

8

I don’t think so. Once we are able to reverse the sterilisation and have the reversal work, then yes it’s a different ball park but I don’t think people should be able to request sterilisation at very young ages and get it lightly.

I especially would refuse to sterilise a client if I were a doctor if she were so casual about her fertility as not to use contraception. I’d be looking sideways at someone who claimed to be sure they didn’t want children yet led their life in such a way as to leave the door open to unexpected surprises. That indicates ambivalence to me.

9

This is a very mixed bag, but IMO, yes, anyone over the age of 18 should be able to choose control over their reproductive future. Of course this also presumes total responsibility accepted by the individual for the choices made.

This, of course, is blue sky and an ideal world. And one that isn’t litigation mad. Yeah, right. Don’t we all wish.

Due to gonzo gynecological factors, I knew–KNEW, with the best medical advice available–from the age of 16 on, that my chances of ever carrying a healthy child, to term, were vanishingly small. I could get pregnant, but the inescapable fact remained that my body just plain couldn’t deliver a child. (Emphais deliberate.) Sometimes the answer, even to questions one hasn’t asked seriously yet, is still, “No.”
Decison time. Hard decision, for me, my folks and doctors, but right there anyway. Over the following two decades and a marriage, I couldn’t find a doctor willing to cut the tubes. (BTW, my ex vehemently did not want children, so there was no misrepresentation.) So I lived with the risk, loathing the idea of abortion but forced, always, right back into brinksmanship, so to speak.

I couldn’t really blame the doctors, because they’re whipsawed, with enormous financial penalties, by people who change their minds, way too late and without accepting responsibility for their decisons.

IMO this issue won’t be resolved, even passably, until religion is factored out, personal responsiblity is paramount and litigation reflects both.

Veb

10

Veb, that’s horrific. Absolutely horrific. Nobody should have to go through that kind of ordeal for years on end.

However I’d still argue that 18 is a very young age to make a decision with such ramifications. I didn’t want kids at 18 – when I was 26 I would have crawled over broken glass to deliver a live child. If the choice were between guaranteed pregnancy or guaranteed sterilisation, I’d maybe think 18 was reasonable but there’s good contraception out there and I don’t think it’s such a big deal to use that until one’s lifepath is clearer.

And absolutely, litigation should not be allowed where proper protocol has been followed and informed consent obtained. If you decide to be sterilised, then you wear the resulting consequences or you pay for a reversal. That’s why although my family is complete, I don’t think I could survive another pregnancy with my sanity intact, we’re still not opting for sterilisation. Neither of us want to be responsible for it although I doubt we could sue if we chose to be sterilised here in Australia.

11

IDBB Sort of sidestepping the OP (I pretty much agree with Manda JO on that one), there is a new birth control procedure I’ve been hearing about, can’t think what it’s called right now, but the deal is that the doc inserts small bits of plastic into the ends of your fallopian tubes, effectively blocking off the paths by which eggs might drop in order to get fertilized. It’s supposed to be a really simple doctor’s office procedure, permanent, but easily reversible. If you can’t find a doc to tie your tubes, I’m sure you could find one to do this. I’m considering it myself, being certain, at age 41 and with 3 kids, that I don’t want any more.

12

Thanks, Prima. T’wasn’t fun, but on balance at least I had a range of contraceptive choices at my command, imperfect as they were, that women of my mother’s and grandmother’s generation couldn’t even have dreamed of. I’m bein’ philosophical here, and being grateful for what was available.

Which maybe ties into your follow up points, and norinew’s. It’s so easy to take medical advances for granted. Maybe “the” answer is just (ahem!) safe, affordable, reliable and reversible contraception. That’s all, nuthin’ major or anything.

We demand a lot from science and medicine, though. I just wonder if our expectations aren’t unrealitic. Fertility issues are pretty fraught. Requiring freedom-on-demand combined with possibility-on-demand is a pretty tough task to pull off.

Not that it isn’t ideal; just tiredly doubtful it’ll ever be applicable for women world wide.

Veb

13

Whoo-boy. Welcome to my soapbox.

I’m 24. I am half-way towards saving the amount of money I need to get sterilised. I have always wanted to remain without children since I can remember. I have known since I was about 14 that I wanted to be sterilised one day. I re-confirmed that at 18, but decided to wait until I was a little older, simply so I wouldn’t be laughed out of the docs office.

I have studies and statistics that I’ve found which agree with my particular case, awaiting the day I march into the doc’s office. I have persuasive reasons, I’m stubborn, I’m even prepared to fight dirty to get this elective procedure done. I am appalled at the fact that I will likely be told I’m too young, or I’ll change my mind, when I’m of legal age and sound mind (silence, from the peanut gallery :wink: )

For me it’s simple. I’m either legally able to make a decision about my body, my future and my wishes or I need a paternalistic, pro-natal doctor to override my wishes. Which is it ? Because I know myself and if a doctor is so sure that I’ll change my mind, then I’d better be put into an institution, because I’ve never been surer of anything in my life. Some people make a choice not to have children, I haven’t. It’s just me, it’s at the core of who I am…

14

I will be trying to get the Essure procedure done before I turn 25. In the meantime I will daily stuff my body with hormones, take a pregnancy test once every two months (just in case), have the possibility of falling pregnant in the back of my mind every time I make love to my husband, continue to not touch my “emergency abortion money” no matter how tight cash is, and have the at least twice-monthly nightmare about discovering the Pill and the tests failed and I’m six months pregnant and it’s too late to get an abortion, oh-my-god what do I do ?

Please understand, just because you (generic you) didn’t want kids at ‘X’ age and changed your mind, or just because you are worried that people will make a wrong choice, or just because you are afraid of permanent decisions, or whatever reason you disagree with voluntary sterilisation of adults, there are real people out there, people whose lives would be greatly enhanced by the knowledge that they were safe from an unwanted pregnancy. Adults should be able to take their own paths in life… Some may regret the choices they made, but is it right to stop all from making those choices ?

IDBB, if you’d like some links to some other online places where this topic is discussed regularly, feel free to e-mail me. Please don’t be so carefree with your contraception. There’s many a woman who thought they were infertile and had a ‘surprise’.

15

Hi Goo!

How many women do you think fall into your category? Are there any studies done which show what the markers are for women like yourself who know at 14 they do not want children and who remain set on that goal? I don’t have issues with the concept of your self determination – it’s more the people in the middle like me at 18. I folllow your argument that you know yourself better than a paternalistic doctor and I agree with that. I’m just not sure that permanent sterilisation on a whim is a Good Thing for 18 yo and that’s what I would argue against. How should the protocol run to sort out who is suited for this elective procedure and who is not?

FWIW I think if contraception’s available on medicare for little or no cost, there’s a reasonable argument for people like yourself who are so distressed psychologically by the idea of babies to have the surgery done for psychological reasons on medicare.

I guess I’m arguing from the other side of the fertility debate – I’ve seen the women desperate for babies and the grief which goes with that. I’d never argue to deny sterilisation on the grounds that hey you haven’t bred yet, drop a sprog and then you can ask nicely and the nice doctor will take your money and do the procedure and everything will be nice for everybody.

So ummmm have I rambled enough yet?

16

There are studies that show that the overwhelming majority of tubal reversals are sought by women who have decided to have another child. The reasons are usually that a child has passed on, or the woman has remarried and wishes to have more children with her new husband. I don’t know of any studies done that could differentiate between those who will always wish to remain childfree and those who will change their minds. I wouldn’t even know how to begin to differentiate between those two groups, and you probably can’t.

[nitpick]
I knew at 14 I wanted to be sterilised one day. I’ve always known, since I knew that humans made children and didn’t pick them up at the grocery store when they wanted one, that I didn’t ever want to make my own. :wink:
[/nitpick]

Tell me Primaflora, you say you didn’t want children at 18, and I believe you. But did you seek out sterilisation ? Did you know the details of the different procedures available ? Did you seriously save and plan towards it ? Or did you just think that children weren’t for you ? I do honestly think that many people change their minds, but they aren’t likely the sort who have spent a long time researching permanent options. Not that I’m saying all women who get sterilised never regret it, some definitely do. But a lot of people regret getting tattoos for example and we don’t make them wait until they’ve had three temporary tatts and are over the age of 35, do we ? :wink: (yes, hyperbole, I know!)

BTW, I’m not distressed psychologically by the idea of babies, I just really, really don’t want children of my own. Yes, it’s not a ‘normal’ view, if you take normal to mean the usual, or the norm. There’s nothing wrong with my mind, I just don’t want children. Someone else could feel the same way about birds, and all they’d have to do is not go to a pet shop and buy one, I take a risk (granted, a small one) each time I make love to Mr Goo. I wish it came down to me just refraining from making a purchase… if only it was that simple :slight_smile:

As for those struggling with fertility issues, yes, they have my sympathy. I would hate to want something so desperately and be unable to get it, I can imagine the inability consuming your life and making you hate your own body for not cooperating. I can see it tearing marriages apart and ruining lives. But for those in that position colely because they voluntarily sterilised themselves and then changed their minds… well, what can I say ? I don’t think anybody is sterilised these days without knowing that it is permanent, so they’ve kinda only got themselves to blame. If I ever get a yearning for kids, I’ll have to satisfy it by fostering, having expensive treatments, adopting, volunteering, or just get on with the consequences of the life decisions I made. I don’t think we have to ‘protect’ people from the possibility they may regret their actions later, I think people should be made responsible for their actions.

On a re-read of your post, I don’t think we’re poles apart on this topic, in fact, I would be surprised if we didn’t agree on most aspects. I know you’re a fan of personal responsibility, even if you’ve seen the heartbreak of infertility up close. I know you wouldn’t support anything that would prevent me from having the procedure done as soon as I can afford it.

I personally don’t think you can do anything but set the age at 18, at least not here in Australia. I mean, you’re either a legally responsible adult or you’re not, though I would understand a doctor’s objections to carrying out the procedure on an 18 year old. What would you prefer to see, Primaflora ? 25 and above, after writing a logical, though-out essay on your reasons why you wish to get spayed ? SO’s consent ? 22 if you’re really really persuasive ? I’d be interested on when you think it’s reasonable, since I just can’t see any reasonable cut-off other than 18 / legal maturity.

17

Now look what you’ve done Flora ! My soapbox just increased in size again ! I’m not going to be able to get it through the door now :smiley:

18

Goo

So I take from your first para, that the vast majority of reversals are women who have had children. But I guess that’s going to have be true as long as access to sterilisation is controlled. We don’t have a cohort to study.

My personal story – remember I’m significantly older than you young whippersnapper. No, sterilisation was not a driving force in my life (that would be a marker to me of someone who was a candidate) but I seriously doubt it was available to me lo these 22 years ago. YK planning wasn’t even an option because nobody was doing any sterilisation of young women at all.

OK so we’ve got different cohorts here. Women who vaguely think at 18 they don’t want kids and they don’t want to deal with contraception. Women who are very very clear and who actively plan not to have kids from a young age. And women who are snipped after having kids and who change their minds later.

I’d be in favour of either gender having to be very very clear about why they want this elective surgery. I’ve come across too many men who were vasectomised without thinking it through. That’s as big a problem as not being able to access the surgery at will. Sterilisation to me is a Major Life Step and it should be treated as such. Esp when someone is young.

I take your point that 18 is an adult but I’m still uncomfortable with the idea that someone can radically alter their fertility without really having been through the normal life stages. Childbirth is occurring later and later in life for western women in general. Closing that door maybe a decade before you and your age peers are breeding seems a little out of sync to me.

When I referred to sterilisation for someone like you as a psychological procedure, I wasn’t meaning you were mentally ill or anything, just that if there is significant discomfort for you on a regular basis then it’s worth treating.

19

I understand your point about the psychological aspects and no offence was taken.

Me too. AFAIK, you currently have to convince a doctor to do the procedure, pay him money (or organise for insurance to pay), sign a form giving consent for the doctors to perform a permanent procedure on you and then front up for the procedure. How can it be any clearer ? What more needs to be done ? Psychological evaluations ? 2 year waiting lists ? No matter what safeguards you put in, some people are going to regret the procedure, simply because some people will change their minds, no matter how high they score on the hypothetical sterilisation candidate test.

I must admit, my knee jerked at first and was telling my brain that your comfort or lack of it was hardly relevant to my access to this procedure, but I managed to hold it down :wink:

O.K, with knee bound firmly to the chair, I would like to know which life stages you’re talking about and why going through them would have any effect on a reproductive decision.

I’m truly open to suggestions that would lessen the numbers of people regretting their sterilisation. If there was a way to sort the regretters from the non-regretters, I’d be all for it. (and post a copy of my certified non-regretter to my MIL :wink: ) But there isn’t. So we are left with three options. No sterilisations, sterilisations for all those who ask for it (and are legally of age/sound mind, etc) or restrictions. I personally think people should be informed of their options, make their own life choices, and deal with the consequences. If there’s another fair way out there, I’m all for it, but I haven’t heard anything better than “legally adult = able to make own decision, even permanent ones.”

Are there any restrictions that would make you more comfortable, Primaflora ?

[hijack]
If you can call me a young whippersnapper, can I call you an old fart ? :wink:
[/hijack]

20

Goo, I have great respect for your determination to not bring into this world children you do not want. Too often, I see people who never wanted children, having them anyway and doing a poor job of raising them. Believe me, raising kids is hard enough when you really wanted them to begin with! But Primaflora does make some valid points. There are probably plenty of girls who, at 18 or so, claim to never want kids, then change their minds. I’m not saying that you’re one of them, just that you’re in a minority. And, as far as 18 being fully adult and in control, there are many instances where this isn’t the case, at least in this country. For instance, you have to be 21 to buy hard liquor (in the state of Maryland). You have to be, I think, 35, to be President of The United States. I’m sure there are other examples that don’t come immediately to mind. So you see, society does recognize that 18 is not a reasonable age of consent for everything. Whether sterilisation should be one of those things has never been clarified.

As a side note, I know a woman, decided very young that she didn’t want children, and at 27 just opened the yellow pages and started calling down the list of OB/GYN’s til she found one who would perform the surgery.