Should anyone who wants to get 'fixed' be able to?

Great Debates
21

Norinew while a person is considered legally an adult at 18 in Australia, I did mention in at least one of my posts that my criteria rested on being legally an adult, so if it’s 21 to be a complete adult where you live, please mentally substitute the age of 21 everywhere I’ve mentioned 18. Sorry about that, it’s easy to fall into the habit of thinking of your local circumstances. The point I’m trying to make is that if you’re considered legally an adult and fully responsible for your actions, why would this choice be any different ? You are able to make your own life choices or you aren’t. Or what age would you think was appropriate ? I’m honestly open to discussing restrictions (though believe me, I’ll argue them) but all anybody else is saying is that they’re uncomfortable or they don’t approve. Has anyone who doesn’t like the idea of young adults being voluntarily sterilised have an alternative ? The old ‘number of kids multiplied by the age’ rule doesn’t really hold water in countries where a certain amount of freedom and self-determination is expected.

Like I said to Primaflora, yes, there are many people who say at 18 “I’m never having kids” and later change their minds. I feel pretty safe in saying that 99% of them never look into sterilisation, so they’re not really of concern. If they were all rushing off to get snipped as soon as the ink was dry on their tattoos the day after their 18th (or 21st) birthday, and then turning up in droves to have their tatts removed and their tubals/vasectomies reversed then it would be relevant to this discussion.

We’re talking about 6-7% of people who have undergone a sterilisation, regretting it. Another study I just googled shows that another contributing factor towards regretting your sterilisation is conflict with your partner around the time the sterilisation decision was made. If there’s a way to test marital harmony or avoid spousal influence then go for it, but really, we’re talking about a small number of people who made a voluntary choice that harms nobody else who end up regretting their actions. Aren’t there some more important things out there to be worried about ? Like those people who murder through neglect, beat, starve and abuse their kids, and continue to make more ? Really, the choice to voluntarily sterilise hurts nobody else, so why is it often such a big problem ?

22

Goo, my point about age was that, here in the US, 18 is the age of maturity for most things, but not all. Thus recognizing that it may not be a reasonable age for all decisions. I’m certainly not implying that a determined, thoughtful, intelligent young woman such as yourself should be denied the right to this procedure, just that I can see the need for a doctor wanting to be certain that you know what you’re doing, since the doctor doesn’t know you personally.
As far as saying:

. The idea that no one else is harmed when they change their minds, doesn’t hold true, at least in this country. you see, sadly enough, we have devolved to a lawsuit happy country. The lawyers are all too willing to tell us that if we’re unhappy about something, even if that something was of our own doing, someone is to be blamed and sued. I certainly can picture a scenario where an 18-20 year old requests sterilisation, regrets the decision 10 years later, and finding a lawyer who convinces a jury that the doctor who performed the procedure needs to pay, because he should have known she was too young to make such a decision!! Even more frighteningly, I don’t doubt that there exist such people as will get the procedure while young, with an eye toward suing in five years!! This is a reprehensible situation, but it does exist, at least here. And I’m certain it is at least a factor in doctors refusing to perform this procedure.

Having said all that, I don’t think 25 is an unreasonably young age to be making such a decision.

23

It only becomes a big problem when a doctor doesn’t want to perform the procedure under the circumstances. And then the question is not should a person be allowed to have the procedure performed but should the doctor be required to perform it. The doctor has the same right as you do to make his or her own decisions.
Personal example- I wanted to have my tubes tied when my second child was born. The legal requirement was that I had to give written, witnessed consent at least 30 days before the procedure. My doctor wouldn’t do it unless my husband was the witness to my consent (I guess to be sure we both agreed).My husband wouldn’t sign it. What right did I have to force the doctor to perform the surgery under circumstances he was not comfortable with? As far as I can see, none. Nothing stopped me from finding another doctor who would, and even if I couldn’t find one, why would my desire to have the surgery override the doctor’s desire not to perform it?.

24

I don’t think people should be able to request sterilisation at very young ages and get it lightly. I agree with you there. But I am pretty darn sure I want to be fixed and no doctor that I’ve talked to so far seems to want to do it (even if I had the $$$ to do it which I don’t right now). It may seem that I’m being rather…carefree with my birthcontrol but I assure you it’s only because I do not have much of a choice. Condoms–allergic to latex. The Pill–I already have a condition called PMDD (pre-menstrual dysphoric disorder),the Pill (as we found out)only causes my PMDD to be MUCH much worse. When I was on the Pill, I only had two moods: Steam-coming-out-the-ears,red-faced rage or breaking down into tears over nothing sobbing like an infant. I can’t do that to myself or CG again, as it was extremely tough for him to handle. I went from being a fairly normal, funny, outgoing person to somebody who was screaming at him all the time for no reason or would break down in tears for stupid stuff like leaving socks on the floor when I"d just cleaned up the bedroom.Stupid stuff like that. Diaphragms…tried that. I would either forget to put it in or just not put it in at all because it was uncomfortable. I don’t like the idea of the Depo shot nor the idea of some piece of metal being implanted in my arm to keep me from being pregnant.shudders I don’t see any other choices than to hope that I don’t get pregnant and figure on my own infertility. Besides from what I understand, ‘irregular’ girls who have whacked out cycles that are different in length/strength from month to month are pretty much infertile anyway.
Ok…back to the topic at hand.
I think that if a woman is of a legal age to make that kind of decision she should be able to do it and I think that doctors shouldn’t be able to refuse to do it for them. There are other options if she wants kids later…IVF, adoption, using her eggs in a surrogate womb,etc. I really think that the medical profession puts too great an emphasis on the ability of a woman to give birth and have kids. I think that women should have the right to choose whether or not they get sterilized. It should be just that simple, but as we all know, nothing in this world is simple.

IDBB

25

IDBB

You think that doctors should not be allowed to refuse? You think that if a doctor feels that a patient is not making a correct decision and refuses to be involved he should, what? Have to pay a fine? Have his liscense revoked? If someone wants to have an apendectomy for the sheer hell of it, and a doctor refuses because he feels it is too dangerous a procedure to be performed on a lark, should the patient be able to compel the docotor?

You have any number of choices–polyurathane or lambskin condoms, IUDs, lots and lots of oral sex.

Goo, I certainly sympathize with your frustration, and I agree that some people are going to change their minds no matter what, and so there is no real point in trying to set up a system that perfectly protects people from this. However, I am a bit confused–do you feel that these doctors should be compelled to offer you this service, or just that they are making a choice they should have the ability to make but that they are not making a wise choice in practice?

26

Actually, IDBB, you do have another option. The Essure procedure previously mentioned. This is the pieces of plastic in your fallopian tubes procedure. Very simple, said to be inexpensive, and, if you want it to be, permanent. But docs are comfortable doing it, because it’s easily reversible any time any one should decide they now want kids.

27

People who support and even wear mullets should be required to be sterilized.

:wink:

:: D&R ::

OUCH! Quit throwing things at me.

28

I know there are alternatives such as the Essure procedure and IUDs, but I disagree with them in this way: I do not want pieces of metal, plastic, whatever, stuck inside MY body for eternity. I am already walking around with quite a bit of hardware (pins in one arm due to broken elbow, pins in left wrist due to broken wrist and pins in one ankle due to broken ankle at one point). I already have problems setting off highly sensitive airport security monitors because of the hardware I have already acquired due to a very hard knock life. I don’t want any more hardware.:frowning:

IDBB

29

IDBB, there are also polyurathane condoms. And in any case, it isn’t about not having a choice–you have a choice and have decided that you perfer the chance of a child to having any more “hardware” installed. There’s nothing wrong with that choice, but it is one that you are making.

You seem to have ignored my question about forcing doctors to tie tubes: what do you think the consequence should be for a doctor who declines to perform a requested elective procedure?

30

just going to point out that a hysterectomy is NOT a simple operation by any means.

for a start you run a 1 in 2000 risk of having your ureter cut, essentially losing the function of that kidney.

tubal ligation isn’t so fantastic either.

post-op infection, scarring, fibrosis and other serious complications cannot be overlooked.

it’s also not terribly reliable, compared to vasectomy, which has 10% of the failure rate of TL.

basically, if you and your parnter don’t want kids, get him fixed.
it’s cheaper, safer, and more reliable.
and your doctor has, and should continue to have total control over what procedures they are willing to perform. for very good reasons.

get another doctor, if you still want to go down this route. i’m sure you’ll find one who will be willing, as long as you’re willing to accept that TL and hysterectomy are not the quick-fix you think.

31

Aren’t there higher rates of prostrate cancer among men who have had vasectomies?

32

:open_mouth: So I did,MandaJo!
What do you think the consequence should be for a doctor who declines to perform a requested elective procedure?
What I think is this…if a doctor refuses to perform an elective procedure, there should be some sort of fine. Not taking away his license…just a fine of some sort. There’s a reason it’s called an ELECTIVE procedure. It’s not something you need, it’s something you CHOOSE to have done for whatever reason, be it TL or breast implants or liposuction or whatever. But that’s JMO.

IDBB

33

Oh and for irishgirl,
What do you work for the People Who Want To Make Other People Have Kids group or something?
I think that the possibility of those things you mentioned happening is less than you are making it out to be. I also think that those complications are supremely preferable to having kids.
Kids are whiny, noisy, messy, demanding, expensive, dirty, annoying and many many other things I don’t want to list here for fear of having people jump all over me about it.
I think a simple procedure like TL is much more preferable and cheaper in the long run than a lifetime of buying pills, condoms,etc.
But that’s JMHO.
IDBB

34

No. Not according to the latest and best studies.

QtM, MD

35

QtM, since you are an MD, can you tell me this then since it sorta relates?
I’ve heard that men who have vasectomies lose the ability to get a quick and hard erection. I’ve also heard that those who do get vasectomies are doomed for life to semi-erections that are less satisfying than normal ones. You tell me…truth or hoax?

IDBB

36

And IMHO to force a physician to perform any procedure that said physician does not feel is appropriate is unconscienable, and should result in a prison term for said forcer, preferably in my prison.

37

Completely untrue.

38

Well I disagree with that too :slight_smile: I see no reason a fully-informed person signing a consent form should be able to successfully sue because they changed their minds, but then we’d get into another debate about legalities. Yes, successfully sue if the goods/services you were sold were faulty or you weren’t informed, but if you just changed your mind ? Too bad. Throw the suit out of court.

But, I agree that aspect is probably on the minds of doctors. And that’s another thing that’s wrong. Doctors shouldn’t be too fearful of unfair lawsuits to offer good care. Pity that’s the way the world currently is.

IDBB, while you’re waiting to get sterilised, I would suggest exploring other BC options just to be on the safer side :slight_smile:

I haven’t really thought about this aspect before. I’m inclined to think that like in any job, if you refuse to carry it out, you may be ‘fired’. I would then relate that to the patient doing the ‘firing’ and seeking out another doctor. There are peole who are unable to make certain medical decisions at certain times. I wouldn’t want a doctor doing a tenth facial cosmetic surgery if he was of the opinion it would be the last straw, damaging the tissue permanently because the patient wants it, or doing a boob job he considered dangerous to the persons health. The doctor should have the option to deny performing an elective surgery, IMO.

That said, I think they’d better be damn careful on their reasons why they are denying the procedure. If they’re denying me the procedure solely because I’m white and should therefore have lots of little white babies, I’ll be suing them for rascism. If they deny the procedure to me solely because they think I’m too young, I’ll be claiming age discrimination. There are certain things a doctor may not discriminate over and in my country, age is one of them. At the moment, this law has only been tested by people being denied treatment because they are seen as too old, but the law is clearly written and doesn’t exclude being too young.

Now, if that same doctor took two people, aged 22 and had a psychological evaluation done on both and one was considered of completely sound mind and the other had the technical version of a few screws loose, I’d be happy for the doctor to not sterilise the not-so-level one but if he still refused the other, it could only be because he thinks that she/he’ll change their minds. I think society as a whole is excessively pro-natalist and I think this aspect is somewhat concentrated in the medical community, though not completely.

I hope that makes sense Manda JO… I don’t believe doctors should be forced into doing procedures they have no wish to do, but they should have a good reason for turning people away. I think they should be treating each patient individually, not an age group, IYKWIM.

Norinew, please follow the Essure link provided. While it is simple compared to tubal ligation (i.e, no abdominal surgery or incisions) it is definitely NOT reversible. AFAIK, there isn’t even a procedure to reverse it, and it’s considered more irreversible than existing methods. Besides the fact that nobody should be sterilised if they’re concerned about reversability, anyone seeking this procedure with an eye towards it being reversable will be told that it isn’t, but I will repeat it here : The Essure method is NOT reversable. It is less likely to be successfully reversed than either the ‘clips’ or the ‘slash ‘n’ burn’ technique of sterilisation.

Irishgirl, I’m going to have to disagree with this. If a man doesn’t ever want kids and wants to be sterilised, then yes, he should get fixed. If a woman wants to never have kids and wants to be sterilised, she should get fixed. I’ll agree that tubal ligations are no walk in the park, and hysterectomies are not for sterilisation (though that’s a side-effect) they are for other reproductive problems, but that doesn’t mean that it should fall by default to the man. It’s a choice, and a joint decision.
If my husband had a vasectomy, I would still go ahead and be sterilised. I want to be infertile. I don’t want to have to go through this again if I remarry. I want to be infertile and for me, that’s all that matters. Take a quick look at the Essure website I linked to. No longer is abdominal surgery required to be sterilised. A 45 minute procedure, micro-inserts inserted vaginally, back to work the next day… It’s less invasive than a vasectomy. Just because a traditional vasectomy is easier than a tradtional tubal is still no reason that the man should have the op. There are many factors that need to be weighed by the individuals involved.

On preview, I see QtM’s posts, and as usual, I agree with him. :slight_smile:

39

I personally don’t think so - it should not be easily available. I realise there are some very strong minded, mature women, who really know what they want from age 18. But I think for many of us, if we are honest, and compare our mindsets at 18 to being 21, to being 25, to being 30 - can witness a lot of change.

I think a physician should have a right to refuse something they believe the patient might later regret, or is doing for wrong or uncertain reasons, just like I think doctors should be able to refuse to carry out abortions (except those where the mother is about to die and it is literally her life v the unborn child).

The other thing is, although right now I am not interested in children and never really have been, I can appreciate that this might change in five or ten or even fifteen years. I can also appreciate that if I was really in love with someone who wanted them, that might change my mind. I can also appreciate that if a cousin or close friend needed a surrogate, I might want to be able to help. And if I was going out with someone who was dying young, we might want to have a child because it would be one way of having something more lasting from our love, if we were not going to get the chance to grow old together.

Women for whom childbirth or pregnancy is going to carry huge medical risk, sure. I think they should be able to get sterilisation at a young age if they want it.

Women who for medical reasons can’t manage long-term forms of birth control (IUD, implants, etc) should also perhaps be given the opportunity.

But no young woman - certainly at an age as young as 18 - should be able to get such a procedure lightly.

40

Oh, this was quite my mistake. I thought that I had read that it was reversible. But I wouldn’t have been paying too much attention to that part, as I was considering it for myself, and know I don’t want more kids.

I don’t see any reason, either. But in this country, it happens all the time!