Stick that Bible up your ass!

The BBQ Pit
21

Satan wrote, re Pickman’s Model:

Much as I hate to admit it, I … *cringe * … I have to agree with Pickman’s Model on religion not being the cause of most wars. While religious excuses were given for many wars, and religious fervor has certainly been played upon by those in power to rally their troops, the root causes of nearly all wars have been gambits for land, resources, or political power on the part of their perpetrators.

That, plus the fact that we chimp-relatives have a mean streak in us.

Visit the Internet Stellar Database at www.stellar-database.com

22

Sorry, Pickman et al, but on this one I come down on Satan’s side.

The underlying justification for Christian activism and claims to persecution is their discontent with “dominant secular culture”.
It is prevailing culture with “secular” thrown in a an attempt to justify imposing a particular religion’s views onto everyone else.

Many people, of varying faiths and beliefs, are disgusted with the violence, crudity and superficiality of contemporary culture. To assume less is a towering insult to those of other beliefs. Have any Islamic, Jewish or Hindu etc. friends? Bet they aren’t any happier with some of comtemporay life.

BUT they aren’t trying to impose their beliefs onto others through the political and legal system. They are not trying to force your children to pray in public schools to your God, or force their religious beliefs into laws you will have live under.

BTW, as I recall the cry from watching a gay rights parade, it was “We’re queer, we’re here and we aren’t going away.”

They shouldn’t have to. They are human beings, they are citizens and anyone who has a religious problem with them…well, in view of my friends who are gay, they aren’t losing anything of value by being shunned by bigots. And the bigots should have no legal power over them.

I genuinely respect and admire Christians who live their faith. In the words of a Buddhist friend, “you treat other people well and try to live a good life.”

Freedom of religion is precious, and I will strongly resist any efforts to impose a rule of Christian ayatollahs on this country. (Yes, extremism happens in all faiths. I don’t want this government run that way.)

Veb

23

"But the simple fact of the matter is, as I’ve said before, religion has replaced Communism as the all-encompassing evil bugaboo in this country. If the average agnostic or atheist person with a liberal bent endorses gay rights or extremely avant-garde art or assisted suicide or partial-birth abortion or whatever, and at the same time opposes having restrictive religious views shoved down his throat, that person is seen as enlightened and progressive. But if a religious person opposes any or all of the above and resents having it shoved down his throat, then he is viewed as a regressive, a fanatic, a dangerous wacko, somebody who wants to take away everyone else’s rights, somebody who ought to just shut up and go away and never open his mouth again about anything, whether it affects him personally or not. "

Depends on the community. I’m an atheist, and I’m generally told that I’m an assistant to murder (I’ve been a clinic escort) and that I should just shut up and not listen to any religious expressions if I don’t believe, but that it would do me good if I listened.

Excuse me, I’ve got to take my green marker to the new bills I got today…I’m going to mark a line through “In God We Trust”.

{Note: I’m speaking ONLY as a poster, not as moderator, here.)

Lynn the Packrat

24

As a graduate of one of these “schools,” I want to point out that sending your child to one of them is the worst thing a parent can do. The schools are generally unacreditted, and no real college will accept a student without a GED or other standardized test. From what I’ve seen, very few graduates could pass a GED.

On the other hand, you can rest assured that your child will most likely turn out to be firmly, stubbornly, ignorantly indoctrinated. They won’t be taught real science or history, and they will be carefully trained to abhor and reject any school of thought or logic other than the one they’ve been shown, and ignore any information that might contradict their religious training. Then they graduate, and are thrust into the real world with no preparation, no education, and no skills. Ths shock is immense.

But don’t fool yourself into thinking that all of the children are indocrinated completely. The ones that manage to escape it, generally are worse than those heathen public school kids. There are drugs, wild parties, and all sorts of unsavory activities stewing under a veneer of holiness.

I’ve been to the living hell that is Christian School, and returned to tell the tale. If you love your children, let them be decently educated, for God’s sake! This world is tough as it is, and you don’t need to add undue burden to a child’s life.

25

It would appear that I have touched a few nerves. I apologize if anyone got upset, but I do not apologize for what I said. As I have said before, nobody has to agree with me. Clearly many of you don’t. That’s fine. If you have staunch opinions, hold to them…as will I. One of the most important things you can do in this life is to think for yourself. Do not swallow anybody’s party line, no matter how expedient it may be. Do your own thinking, and hold to your opinions; and if those opinions happen to be unpopular or at variance with those of the majority, you can fully expect to take some flak over it, as I did. That’s fine. I have big shoulders. And I will continue to follow my own course and to do my own thinking, guided by the set of values that I believe to be right. As should every one of you.

The NAMBLA reference I made that everybody seized on, I used as an example, nothing more. Go back and re-read my post, this time without the accompanying sirens and red lights. Do I, anywhere, advocate violence or harm to gays? I don’t believe that I did. What I did do was to attempt to explain the opposition that various Christian groups have towards the gay lifestyle. Kelli opined that I was comparing NAMBLA to ordinary gays, when in fact my first sentence in that point clearly states the exact opposite. I said that the controversy has nothing to do with average gays who were minding their business and living their lives; the controversy is about militant groups like ACT-UP and Queer Nation, who, IMHO, are just as obnoxious in their own way as Jews For Jesus or any other loud, pushy, militant group. I don’t place any blame on Kelli or anyone else in this particular rhubarb, however, because these are obviously hot-button issues and the appearance of certain words and/or phrases often cause the alarms to go off, the blinders to come down, the body armor to go on, and suddenly people are mounted up, fully charged, locked, loaded, and halfway to their target before they get a chance to fully reflect on what was actually being said. I am just as guilty of this as anyone else, although I do try to understand what the poster in question means before I take aim. Let us, by all means, figure out what the other person is actually trying to get across before we deliver the entire payload in our inventory, shall we?

Big Iron and Phil questioned my intelligence. That’s fine, too. You have my full permission to dismiss me as a total and complete moron, if you so choose; the sun will still rise tomorrow morning. Personally, I don’t think that adhering to a dissident opinion renders someone an imbecile, but that’s just me; others may have a different viewpoint. I will stick by my views, as I believe them to be right. Again, your views may be, and quite probably are, quite different.

The only other comment I will make is to disagree with Lissa’s viewpoint that Christian schools are substandard. Some of them may be; certainly not all of them are. I attended nine years of Catholic parochial school, K-8, and four years of public high school. My first two years in high school were a waste of my time; I didn’t learn a thing, because we’d already covered that material in grades 7-8 in parochial school. It was review for me. Do I think that my parochial school was superior to the public high school? You bet your sweet bippie I do.

For the benefit of Big Iron, re: the specialized world of academia----for what it may be worth, I happen to be a police officer.

26

It would appear that I have touched a few nerves. I apologize if anyone got upset, but I do not apologize for what I said. As I have said before, nobody has to agree with me. Clearly many of you don’t. That’s fine. If you have staunch opinions, hold to them…as will I. One of the most important things you can do in this life is to think for yourself. Do not swallow anybody’s party line, no matter how expedient it may be. Do your own thinking, and hold to your opinions; and if those opinions happen to be unpopular or at variance with those of the majority, you can fully expect to take some flak over it, as I did. That’s fine. I have big shoulders. And I will continue to follow my own course and to do my own thinking, guided by the set of values that I believe to be right. As should every one of you.

The NAMBLA reference I made that everybody seized on, I used as an example, nothing more. Go back and re-read my post, this time without the accompanying sirens and red lights. Do I, anywhere, advocate violence or harm to gays? I don’t believe that I did. What I did do was to attempt to explain the opposition that various Christian groups have towards the gay lifestyle. Kelli opined that I was comparing NAMBLA to ordinary gays, when in fact my first sentence in that point clearly states the exact opposite. I said that the controversy has nothing to do with average gays who were minding their business and living their lives; the controversy is about militant groups like ACT-UP and Queer Nation, who, IMHO, are just as obnoxious in their own way as Jews For Jesus or any other loud, pushy, militant group. I don’t place any blame on Kelli or anyone else in this particular rhubarb, however, because these are obviously hot-button issues and the appearance of certain words and/or phrases often cause the alarms to go off, the blinders to come down, the body armor to go on, and suddenly people are mounted up, fully charged, locked, loaded, and halfway to their target before they get a chance to fully reflect on what was actually being said. I am just as guilty of this as anyone else, although I do try to understand what the poster in question means before I take aim. Let us, by all means, figure out what the other person is actually trying to get across before we deliver the entire payload in our inventory, shall we?

Big Iron and Phil questioned my intelligence. That’s fine, too. You have my full permission to dismiss me as a total and complete moron, if you so choose; the sun will still rise tomorrow morning. Personally, I don’t think that adhering to a dissident opinion renders someone an imbecile, but that’s just me; others may have a different viewpoint. I will stick by my views, as I believe them to be right. Again, your views may be, and quite probably are, quite different.

The only other comment I will make is to disagree with Lissa’s viewpoint that Christian schools are substandard. Some of them may be; certainly not all of them are. I attended nine years of Catholic parochial school, K-8, and four years of public high school. My first two years in high school were a waste of my time; I didn’t learn a thing, because we’d already covered that material in grades 7-8 in parochial school. It was review for me. Do I think that my parochial school was superior to the public high school? You bet your sweet bippie I do.

For the benefit of Big Iron, re: the specialized world of academia----for what it may be worth, I happen to be a police officer.

27

[[Big Iron and Phil questioned my intelligence. ]] Pickman’sModel
Actually, I had thought you had a bit on the ball (and I still do, generally), which was the reason for my shock at reading your words I this case.

BTW, the NAMBLA reference may have been not intended too harshly (although it sure looked funny), but the prior crack about “we’re here we’re queer, we want to corrupt your children” is not so readily explained away.
[[For the benefit of Big Iron, re: the specialized world of academia----for what it may be worth, I happen to be a police officer. ]]
And your experience has been that it’s tougher to say, “I believe in God” that it is to say “I don’t believe in God?”

28

Are we to infer that these people are in hell?

29

Oh, groan.

Lemme suppose a supposition for you, and derive the logical consequences.

Two thousand years from now, after the Y2K bug has destroyed civilization and it has been rebuilt, there exists a substantial minority of people who claim to honor and respect the wisdom of Cecil Adams. These people are called Cecilites by themselves and everyone else.

The problem is, many of these, being a good cross section of humanity, have not learned to think for themselves. As a result, they are seeking out proofs for their pet prejudices, and finding them in the words of Cecil. Many of them have evolved spiritual disciplines including bowing towards the Chicago Reader building, making a yak-back pilgrimage to Lake Louise, MN, etc. The name of Marilyn Vos Savant is vilified; in fact, a freethinking woman who posts to a forum of thinkers has adopted that name as a parody on “those who speak as though they were Cecil.” Many of these Cecilites have attempted to modify the laws of the land to better approach what they understand Cecil to have said in his Sacred Writings. They reject the findings of the science of the time because it contradicts the Words of Cecil. And they are requiring, when they get power to, that others follow what they consider the Right Path to the Wisdom of Cecil.

Now, a few people have read Cecil’s work and extracted from it a devotion to finding out the truth and making it available to the Teeming Millions, and claim that that is what he stood for. The non-Cecilite public is saying, “No, that can’t be valid. Look what all these meddling busybodies are doing. Cecilitism is an evil blot on the body public.”

Well, yes, people who call themselves Cecilites are doing some things that would cause the Master of All Wisdom to roll over in his grave. And the people who try to use their head for something besides a reverberation chamber for their mouths are offended at this misuse of his name, and also at being tarred with the same brush as the “we know the Will of Cecil” Cecilites.

That is in essence what I understood Pickman’s Model to be saying. Us Christians who do maintain an open mind and try to follow Jesus’s teachings (“Judge not, lest you be judged”; “Love your neighbor as yourself”; “You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free”) are as repelled as the rest of you, if not more so, by what the idiots who use the Bible as a geology textbook/source of legislation for running a nation/you name it are doing in Jesus’s name. I could work into a really good rant on the subject, but it’s my hope to do a oil-on-the-waters post here. Satan is right on target on what they are doing, and it pisses me off no less than it does him. Pickman’s Model is more or less on target as well, since, as I said, those of us who try to use our brains and also follow Jesus are repelled as hell by what they are doing with our beliefs.

That said, I have one cavil with Pickman’s Model’s post, and I want to do a misquotation, with one word and two phrases changed:

Sounds pretty racist, right? All I did was substitute “blacks” for “gays” and two black activist groups for two gay activist groups. Pickman, you blew it on this one. Also, to the best of my knowledge, no “reputable” gay organization (as opposed to NAMBLA and other fringe groups) suggests anything about youth other than that, if your kid turns out to be gay (13.9% chance for boys, 7.4% for girls, according to the latest analysis of the Kinsey figures; I don’t have stats. from Masters & Johnson or any other more recent source), they should be encouraged to accept who they are, not be put on a guilt trip, and not be driven to suicide by being rejected. Certainly sounds like something we should condemn them for, doesn’t it?

Temujin had a very witty post just before this one making a play on someone with username Satan claiming to be “innundated with people who are attempting to legislate morality and spirituality” and deriving from this that they are in Hell. I did laugh at it, but on sober analysis, probably some of them are. From what I found in the Gospels, the only people Jesus got pissed off at were (1) people making money off other people’s beliefs and (2) people who attempted to legislate how other people behaved on the basis of their own religion. I’d say to the average “conservative Christian” that he might sit down and read his Holy Book before he starts making pronouncements about others.

And I’d ask the rest of you to back off. ARG is gone. PM, Tom, Jodi, Jeffery, and I (and there are a few others, I believe) are interested in having a good time exploring reasoned thought with you, and unearthing the Straight Dope about whatever people are interested in. If somebody starts a religion thread, we’ll chime in with what we think. At least, I don’t believe that is prohibited by the TOS. We’ll respect your views; we ask you respect ours. And maybe together we can make a dent in that self-righteous unthinking ######@#@@@ …

Well, you get the picture.

30

Polycarp, maybe if the mainstream moderate religious leaders and adherents spent more time vocally and demonstratively opposing yahoos like the sherriff in question and less time gathering the ecumenical wagons anytime they perceive religion itself to be under attack, there wouldn’t exist problems like this. I’m not a member of your religion, so don’t expect me to rescue it from the assholes. That’s your job.

31

Oh, and I almost forgot: It’s disingenuous, Pickman’s Model, to claim that the problem is not with “ordinary gays who are living their lives and minding their business,” because people like Sherriff McDickless are always making it their business.

I mean, nobody is out passing laws against your garden variety penile/vaginal intercourse, right? Nope, they’re making oral and anal intercourse illegal, the types that homosexuals are likely to engage in. What kind of consenting adults are forbidden from marrying? Close relatives, and same-sex partners. Who has difficulty adopting children, and have in same cases have their birth children removed from their care? Homosexuals. (One judge had the audacity to claim that being a lesbian in and of itself made a woman a bad parent.)

So, in many cases, these people are actively prevented from living their lives and minding their business. Then, when they dare to question why this is so, and speak up, and try to change things, they are accused of being militant and told to get back in their closets. By people who think just like you. What are they supposed to do, roll over and take it? Decide that the Christians know what’s best for everyone?

NAMBLA, as you well know, is a separate issue altogether; they want to lower the age of consent so they can molest children with impunity. It has nothing to do with gay-rights issues whatsoever, except peripherally. (There are young gay men who seek out older, more experienced men as their first partners, for which there can be legal consequences, but that is another issue.)

Polycarp, if Christianity is such a great think, and is supposed to do so much positive for the human race, and supposed to bring so much joy and so much good to people, and the problem is that, heck, it just keeps getting stolen by bad people, then maybe you and PM and jodih and Jeffery should spend a little less time defending it to me and David and others and spend a little more time defending it from Sherriff McDickless and others like him. If you don’t, you are giving tacit approval to their interpretation of and use of your religion.

32

Phil, heard and understood, and thank you. When and where possible, I will proceed to do so. (No sarcasm is intended; you make a valid point.)

33

It is so nice to see everyone getting along. :slight_smile:

34

Since this tangent has been broached:

Well, we’ve generalized on everything else in this thread, why not education?

My kids attend a church sponsored, Christian school. It is accredited. As a matter of fact, a great deal of this school’s curriculum has been adopted by the accreditation board as the model for all schools. GED upon graduation is not necessary. Standardized testing is used annually. The average student at this school scores in the 85th percentile on the Iowa Basic Skills test. This in a state where public education ranks in the bottom 5th of the nation. The kids learn “real” science. Evolution is taught, but from the standpoint that the world, including the evolutionary process was created by God.

Before choosing a school for our kids my wife and I got a copy of the curriculum and textbooks from the public school system and several private schools. Trust me, I would rather be able to avoid the private school expense and send my kids to public school, but a quality education is the main objective. After looking at the curriculum and talking to teachers and administrators the choice was obvious.

Is it accurate to say public schools don’t work? Obviously, no. It is just as wrong to paint all religious schools with the same brush. There are good ones, and bad ones, on both sides.

This whole thread has been argued from the extremes. The OP brings up the deluded Sherrif and ARG, PM throws in NAMBLA. There are extremist nuts in all walks of life. To argue based on what extremist do is just a smokescreen. Polycarp is the only one who has posted here without red herrings and retoric. Thanks, Polycarp.

Oh, and one more thing -

So Christians are to rebuke and censor the Sheriff for his religious beliefs because we consider them wrong, but leave the atheists and practitioners of other religions alone because that’s being preachy. Swell, Phil, that makes it all so clear.

The overwhelming majority of people have more than the average (mean) number of legs. – E. Grebenik

35

Polycarp: Thank you for saying what I could have, but didn’t bother to since it would be fruitless, redundant, and depressing. The better part of the second half of Matthew Chapter 10 comes into play here, I believe.

Phil: I could pursue this subject further, but as I said, it would be fruitless, redundant, and depressing. I have my opinions and viewpoints on this and other subjects, but to attempt to explain them in a rational manner would get us nowhere due to the polarization and politically-charged nature of the debate. Ergo, I won’t attempt to try.
Mutato nomine de te fabula narratur.

“What I have written, I have written.” ----Pontius Pilate.

36

Maybe I should have been more clear. You’re completely right about the parochial schools. I’ve seen some really outstanding Catholic schools. What I was referring to are Protestant the-schoolroom-is-in-the-utility-room-in-the-church-basement type of places. Specifically, schools using the Accelerated Christian Education cirriculum. They’re one of the largest church-school franchises.

I stand by this, however: a lot of the schools are unaccredited, and some are not exactly forthcoming about that fact.

I’m glad to hear this. I wish that all parents would do the same, and I wish there were more schools like that. I have no problem with a private, religious accademy, as long as the educational standards are up to par. The ones I despise wrap children up in a thick layer of blnd ignorance, and thrust them out into the world with a fifth grade education, content in the knowledge that the child can recite Matthew, chapter seven, by heart.

37

Well, do you want people like me to think Christianity produces and is represented by people like Sheriff Hitler, or by people like Polycarp? (This was the very essence of the entire argument I had with Jodi, where she basically accused me of tilting at windmills.) If it makes you happy to see your religion corrupted by people like that, more power to you.

I’m curious as to how many of the people Sheriff Hitler arrests each year would self-identify as Christian, and how many would self-identify as atheists, homosexuals or abortionists. That would go a long way towards revealing just how misplaced his fury is.

PM, I’m sure people here are more than willing to discuss the issue rationally, but I think you’d have a hard time defending a proposition like “Homosexuals should be legally prohibited from having sex, and longtime gay couples should not have the same inheritance rights as straight couples.” If that isn’t your premise, then I apologize, but it seems to me you’re defending that sort of treatment.

38

But you do see the quandry this puts religious folk in, don’t you? Even if I could confronted the good Sheriff on national TV and show him how corrupted his interpretations are, it would do no good. I would have to use religious texts to refute his claims. Since no athiest, agnostic, or adherants to other religions would accept my religious texts as a valid reference point I would be “preaching to the choir”. The most I could hope for is to change his mind. Wanna lay odds on that?

The overwhelming majority of people have more than the average (mean) number of legs. – E. Grebenik

39

Well, I’m genuinely sorry it puts you and other nice Christians in a quandary, Dr. J., but I don’t know what to tell you. Guys like this are only going to make it worse.

For the most part, this is the face Christianity presents to the public. Not you, not Polycarp, but Sheriff Hitler, and Jesse Helms, and Fred Phelps, and even Cardinal O’Connor (who wants to ban sports on Sundays so little kids will go to church and not soccer). What are non-Christians to think when the mass of well-meaning Christians don’t vocally denounce yahoos like this? These are the people who have empowered themselves to speak for the Christian religion.

40

Since no athiest, agnostic, or adherants to other religions would accept my religious texts as a valid reference point I would be “preaching to the choir”.

Not at all! Others of the main-stream are at least tolerant enough to accept that your reference points does not in any way SUPPORT your own fringe elements! If you do not vocally demonstrate it, then only the fringe will fill the airwaves to represent you! You want THAT to happen?