Stick that Bible up your ass!

The BBQ Pit
41

Danny is right…those of us who believe that Christian should not be a swearword for everyone who isn’t one need to speak up. But I suspect it will do little or no good. Most of the posters on this board saw how little we convinced ARG220 of. And we were “playing on his court” using the same Rulebook.

“The only person you’ll ever get to agree with you is someone who already agrees with you.” - Frank Zappa

On the other hand, consider Bonhoeffer’s epitaph: “First, they came for the Jews. And I didn’t protest, because I wasn’t a Jew. Then they came for the homosexuals. And I didn’t protest, because I wasn’t homosexual. … Then they came for me. And there was nobody left to protest.”

:frowning:

42

Amen, brother.

Well, we do. You don’t hear it because:

Yes, they have. But they are only successful because the media carries their words and pictures to the broader audience. Mainstream Christian teaching doesn’t sell advertising. Rabble rousing does. Media execs know this type of retoric is good for ratings. It pisses people off and gets them interested. I present the OP as evidence. I could list many examples of good teachers/preachers/scholars who consistantly rebuke these types of folks. I hear them because I seek them out. Most folks don’t, though, and the “mainstream” media ain’t gonna bring them to you.

Put another way, I don’t believe that Rev. Al Sharpton represents the views of the majority of the NAACP or Christianity, but wherever he goes he gets plenty of air time.

The overwhelming majority of people have more than the average (mean) number of legs. – E. Grebenik

43

I would hope that before any of us try to convince others outside of our own group (if indeed our beliefs somehow compel us to go out and try to get converts), we would first try to put our own house in order. And THAT, can be a full-time, life-time job already! How can we defend our own beliefs against others if we cannot even defend it against our own?

For what its worth, I think that the fringe will always serve to point out the absurdity of one’s sometimes misguided believes, and teach the valuable lessons necessary put one back on track. There will always be the vocal fringe, but we should never let that deter us from what’s right. In the end, the fringe is more like entertainment or noise in the background. In the US, in particular, we should not be afraid of words, ever! I fundamentally belief that the majority is not as dumb as these fringe elements make us out to be.

44

OK, in the interest of fairness, here’s some ammo for the other side:

ST. PAUL, Sept. 30 – In an interview with Playboy magazine, Gov. Jesse Ventura of Minnesota has said religion is for the ‘‘weak-minded,’’ the Tailhook scandal was overblown and the military-industrial complex was to blame for the killing of President John F. Kennedy.

The Associated Press obtained an advance copy of the interview , which appears in the November issue, which will go on sale on Monday.

In the interview , he blamed organized religion for the unpopularity of legalized prostitution, which he has said should be considered. ‘‘Organized religion is a sham and a crutch for weak-minded people who need strength in numbers,’’ he said. ‘‘It tells people to go out and stick their noses in other people’s business.’’

Anyway . . .

I see your point, Doc. I do. But I don’t think it can be blamed completely on the media. In my opinion, and this is only my opinion, it points out the failure of organized religion in general and Christianity in particular to accomplish what it says it can and will. Again, this is only my opinion. (And, FWIW, it would make no nevermind to me if the Christian religion or any other destroyed itself from the inside out.)

Here’s another minor and anecdotal example. There’s a woman who often shares the bus with me. She is about 75, diabetic, with a bad foot. She goes to the library and gets a lot of books that she totes around in a metal shopping cart. I often help her on and off the bus with it, but I am still on crutches right now.

The other day, I get on the bus and she is already on with her cart. There are two other men sitting at the front of the bus. One has obviously helped her on the bus with it, and is conversing with her and keeping her company (she loves to chat). The other is chatting with the driver. All I hear him talking about is church this, and church that, and our men’s group dinner and the Christian bachelor party for his friend and our choir this and on and on and on.

So we get to the woman’s stop. The man who had been talking with her helps her get her cart off the bus. Mr. Church simply sits there gabbing. Then, when the door closes, the driver starts complaining about her, and she had the wrong kind of transfer, etc. And Mr. Church joins with the driver in making fun of this old woman.

Now, for all I know, the other guy was Christian too. Maybe, maybe not. But Mr. Church was doing what I see far too many people doing–engaging in what I call Conspicuous Christianity. “Oh, look at me, I love Jesus and I do everything for my church!” But can they be bothered to actually do or say anything nice? Nope, sorry too busy chatting and mocking the elderly and the handicapped.

Is it my business to say something to him? Not AFAIC–I’m not a member of his religion. Obviously this guy is a doofus and religion has done nothing to change that. I’ve seen it going on for years, in every church I ever belonged to.

“I love God! He’s so deliciously evil!” - Stewie Griffin, Family Guy

45

I’m extremely curious…have any of you ever met a religious person—let’s say an adherent of a mainstream religious body, Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, what have you—who was a real, live good person? I mean somebody who actually had a great love for both God and their fellow man, who did nice things for people, who actually tried to live their faith and not just talk about it? Or have you only met people who were losers, wastrels, hypocrites, liars, lunatics, fanatics, pushy proselytizers, inconsiderate slobs, and assholes?

This must be somebody that you personally know and are acquainted with…Mother Theresa doesn’t count, unless you actually knew her.

Is there any such thing as a good religious person? Or are all Christians liars and lunatics, all Muslims fanatical terrorists, all Hindus wild-eyed mystics, all Jews repressed legalists, all Buddhists hollow-minded monks who meditate on riddles, etc.? Is there anybody out there who doesn’t fit these molds, who is a religious person worthy of admiration in some way?

For some odd reason, I’m thinking there can’t be very many…if any at all…

46

Oh, sure there have been a few I’ve known. Just like there have been a few nonreligious people of the same stripe. But people aren’t good because they’re religious; they’re good because they want to be. I mean, don’t use me as a representative sample; it’s my considered opinion that most people are relatively selfish and shortsighted, albeit benign. Good people are good people whether religious or not.

Too many people (in fact, I’d say a staggering majority in the U.S.A.) think they are accomplishing good just through the act of going to church or believing in God. They think it’s an end, when it should be a means.

Besides, finding a truly good religious person doesn’t validate the religion any more than finding a truly bad one condemns it. But if the scales tilt heavily in one direction or the other, one has to question the usefulness of the institution.

Christianity is going on its 2000th-odd birthday. Has it made the world demonstrably better? I say “No.” It’s my feeling, experience and opinion that most people are adherents to make themselves feel better, to reassure themselves in a life after death, and to perform a few perfunctory duties a few times a year and on Sundays to make someone they think exists favor them. They are not adherents in order to make the world better; they are in it for themselves.

47

My friend’s father is a real-life version of Ned Flanders. I get along with him fine. No “you don’t believe what I believe so you’re going to burn in hell” messages- more of a “to each their own” mentality.

And I’ve met many others (hindu, jewish, muslim) who are basically the same way. You just don’t hear about them because they’re not the in-your-face assholes that get the publicity (Falwell, Oral Roberts, et. al.).

48

In all honesty, the only “conspicuously religious” people I have met who I have considered genuinely good people who practice what they preach have been on this message board. I am pleased to meet any person who has a strong, well-reasoned moral code and a compassionate heart. However, in real life, the most religious people I have met have been the most unpleasant, from a preacher who stole and deceived and was one of the most outwardly charming and inwardly unpleasant people I have ever met, to a devout family member who accused (with NO good reason) my recently-deceased father to my and my mother’s face of being a thief (and made my mother cry). Most very religious people I know think that God has personally endorsed their predjudices agaist homosexuals, Jews, Mexicans, what-have-you. So while I would like to believe that all the good things that religions espouse would have some affect on those who follow it, from what I have seen its net effect has seemed to me to produce more hypocrites, rather than more good people.

I don’t automatically think all religious people are bad, as you seem to be implying. I would like to think that all the love is preached is reflected in people’s lives. But I fear immoral religous people more than I would immoral atheists, because religious sorts can tell themselves that they have been ordered to do whatever they’re doing by God, and then no one can convince them otherwise. Not that atheists can rationalize as well, but fanaticsm is easy to come by when you think the Almighty agrees with you.

True, this always makes me cringe. I know people who cheerfully flout the commandments, then tell me “We go to church every Sunday; we’re good people.”

“Eppur, si muove!” - Galileo Galilei

49

Chorus of an actual song, c1910:

“He goes to church on Sunday;
He passes 'round the contribution box!
But meet him in the office on a Monday–
He’s as cunning and as crooked as a fox!
On Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday,
He’s robbing everybody that he can–
But he goes to church on Sunday,
So they say that he’s an honest man!”

50

Probably the best religious quote I’ve seen in quite some time, and it’s delivered by an athiest. :slight_smile: Part of me loves the irony, but part of me is chagrined for not having said it myself.

I dunno. The very fact that Christianity has been around so long makes that a difficult question to answer, even hypothetically. IMHO, the teachings of the Bible have made the world a better place. Demonstrably better? I wouldn’t begin to know how to show that.

BTW, Phil, this is not the time or the place, but I’ve been meaning to ask - when do you lose the crutches? If you don’t care to answer here, maybe a update post in MPSIMS is appropriate.

The overwhelming majority of people have more than the average (mean) number of legs. – E. Grebenik

51

Scene: Route 64. Bumper-to-bumper traffic, moving in fits and starts. I am riding with a friend, a man of whom, if I had to describe him in one word, I would select “patient.”

Situation: Small late-model car whips in front of us. Friend panic-brakes, and we look at the car. It has the obligatory fish logo and a bumper sticker which we both fixate on simultaneously: CHRISTIANS AREN’T PERFECT / ONLY FORGIVEN

Bill comes up with the perfect comment: “Yeah, but does he have to prove it?”

52

PM: Yeah, I’ve known several people whom I would consider good folk who consider themselves to be Jewish, Christian, and Muslim. Sorry, but I’ve not known any Hindus or Buddhists.

They very quietly live their lives and their faiths without judgments on others, proselytization, or feeling a burning need to bomb anything.

I also know more than a few atheists and agnostics who are good people.

The problem, as I see it, and as I’ve read in this thread, is that there are too many people out there that I would not consider good people who have set themselves up as spokespersons for their religions, and too few good people who will speak out against them. When I have asked my friends and acquaintances why they don’t make a point of speaking out, they tell me something along the lines of, “They are fools, and those who would follow them are even more foolish.” Which is fine, as far as it goes, but some of the jerks are becoming members of the local school board, and in one infamous instance, sheriff. But until some of the good folk get out there and raise hell against the jerks, that’s just the way it’s gonna be.

Waste
FLick Lives!

53

I don’t mind answering the aside here, Dr. J. I go in for followup surgery Tuesday (10/5), when the doc takes the large screw out of my leg bones. I’m hoping to make some progress off the crutches by the end of that week. I’m going to ask him for some physical therapy sessions, one or two, because I’m psyching myself out thinking my leg is going to collapse if I put weight on it and lift my good foot off the ground. If I can get past that mental thing, I’ll be OK.

54

Actually, if you think about it, a minister of any faith has to be the ultimate politician/salesman, for s/he has nothing but words of an ideology to hold sway over the flock. Since we are past the middle ages (although there are countries that seem not able to get out of it), the flock nowadays easily vote by their feet. Organized religion thus become a microcosm of a political body, complete with power brokers and polarizing factions. A minister will have to dance pretty hard just to keep everything togather because his own meal ticket is at stake. And in all this, some good is supposed to be collectively accomplished by the organization to justify the tax exemptions. I would imagine that it is pretty hard to not degenerate in such a way that the ideology will have to be twisted and modified to fit any particular localized bigotry. If you find a good minister, they will have to be classified as saintly!

55

With all due respect, you don’t know what Satan does or doesn’t do. You seem to be saying that his participation in a message board where he can discuss what bothers him is somehow preventing him from taking action… like it’s an either/or situation.

Well I have news for you: you can complain about something and do something about it, BOTH. No, really! You can! And voicing your opinion on things that matter to you is IMPORTANT. There. See? You learn something new every day.

>^,^<
“Cluemobile? You’ve got a pickup…”
OpalCat’s site: http://opalcat.com
The Teeming Millions Homepage: fathom.org/teemingmillions

56

My mother was baptized at age 48 into the United Church of Canada and she is one of the most integrity-filled people I know. She supported me completely when I came out both as gay and as Wiccan. She isn’t perfect, but she’s a damn sight more ethical and admiration-worthy than a lot of people I know.

James, my best friend, is a devout Wiccan. I’ll just say he has saved me from suicide more than once, and he’s working to save the world.

57

Phil, feel the power of my words as you read them on your monitor … believe that I can HEAL you … now, put your hands on your computer and FEEL the HEALING power of my Papal Bull … I say again, verily, put your hands AND your HEAD on the computer … HEAL!!!

Now Phil, cast down your crutches and WALK!

Let me know how it turns out … :slight_smile:

58

Isn’t he supposed to send in some money to “help the ministry” before that works?

Livin’ on Tums, Vitamin E and Rogaine

59

Me: “May the force be with you.”
Best Friend: “And also with you.”

:slight_smile:

60

::blink::

How deep did you have to dig to find this one?