One last question. Would you take these steps if the student was not coming to class stoned (and therefore, to your knowlege, was not a pot-smoker)?
I wonder; are all students who are in danger of flunking out given two chances to speak with the dean, rather than going straight to J-Board?
Just curious.
Although I am not in school any more, I am in awe Phlosphr that that you care about your student so much. I once had an accounting course in uni where the professor stated that he wanted us to write down the minimum grade we required to pass so that we didn’t have to repeat the course or go on probation/suspension or bring down our cumulative gpa for those purposes. I that that was very cool because you didn’t have to waste your money retaking the course if you need a c+ and got a c. He felt that if say we need a c+ to pass and not go on probation and we got a c he would use his discretion to give you the c+ so that you weren’t withdrawn or put on probation. I don’t know what the boys major is, but I guess you can’t make him stop smoking before your class. But if hes at risk of being withdrawn you could talk to him. I’m impressed.
See, cherry, here’s the thing: There are some kids who, despite studying their asses off, simply don’t have an aptitude for the subject, or have anxiety problems, or whatever. There are others who simply don’t care to do the work, but want to pass anyway.
As a person studying to be a teacher, I think that I’d attempt to help both the kid who studied & the kid who didn’t, but I’d probably try harder to find an ethical way to pass the kid who tried but, for whatever reason, was doing poorly, rather than the kid who refused extra help, etc.
Yes, absolutely. More to come on that subject when I get back…I have to do my taxes with mrs.phlosphr… yuck
Coming to class stoned indicates an absolute lack of respect for the professor and one’s fellow students. I really don’t see how it’s different than coming to class drunk. It’s not acceptable to be stoned on the job. A college student’s job is to go to classes and learn. It’s wonderful that you care so much about your students, but I would have thrown the jerk out weeks ago.
It’s great that you care about his educational future, but my simple opinion on the matter is: so long as he’s not disruptive to the class, you should be channeling your energy toward helping those that are trying and want to learn.
Too often is the instructor’s time and energy taken from the students that deserve it, to cater to the dopes that don’t care.
He sounds like me at that age–an immature, self-centered, jerk–and no amount of thoughtful advising will help. The only way he’ll learn is the hard way.
Something I want to point out here…
For some people, marijuana is addictive. I’m not going to get into the physical/psychological addiction debate, but suffice it to say that for a percentage of marijuana users, the addiction to marijuana is just as serious as addiction alcohol, or cocaine.
With that in mind, you might want to look at what you might do to help this kid get some help. There’s literature out there from Marijuana Anonymous that may help. There is a whole world of twelve step programs that are pretty used to potheads showing up, wondering if they actually can have a problem, even though their lives have fallen apart long since.
One of the worst things I had to deal with when I was addicted was the idea that pot wasn’t addictive, that I couldn’t really have a problem with it, that it was harmless. For me, it’s not, and once I started looking around for help, the help was there. But it took losing almost everything to get to that point.
I think what you’re doing for this guy is admirable, Phlosphr. But he probably doesn’t even realize most of it is happening. He may not even know that you realize that he’s stoned. But if he follows the classic route that pot addicts do, his life will just keep spiralling down for years, while he thinks that the pot can’t have anything to do with it.
Here’s the Twelve Questions that can help someone determine whether they have a problem with marijuana. I don’t know whether you’d feel comfortable passing this on to him, but it’s helped some people come to the conclusion that something has to change.
I appreciate the difficulty of your situation, having been the kid on the other side of the desk. The only thing that I think could have been done to help me, back then, is for someone to present to me the idea that for some people, marijuana can be a major problem.
I still don’t really understand why you care about this particular student. Sounds like a fuck up who is used to coasting on mommy and daddy’s cash and influence. Maybe flunking out would be the wake-up call he needs. The kid’s in college. I suspect he would be the first to demand that he be treated like an adult. Sometimes adults pay the price for their indiscretions. Might be a more valuable lesson for him than the rest of your course material.
Of course, I was never a big fan of attendance or participation requirements (at least in straight lecture courses - yours sounds like one where in-class discussion is an important part of the class.) So, on the occasions I actually attended class in college and law school, more often than not I was stoned.
The guy next to me in my psych class is stoned all the time. He’s not passing and I don’t think my professor has any intention of passing him. And I agree.
I honestly don’t see what the big deal is. To me, the kid’s marijuana problem and his grade in your class are related, but definitely separate issues. I commend you for caring so much about a student on a humanitarian level, but as a professor, your job is to grade objectively (a concept I have noticed many professors ignore).
In any case, I wish you were at my school. Here, the only “wiggle room” to push your grade a letter higher is if you have demonstrated a true effort to learn the material and you’re just a point or two away from the next grade. You know, “A for effort” and all that.
Dinsdale - I care but I am teetering on my last ounce of patience. In my last thread on this, I said that I spoke with him in private, by catching him on campus when he was not around anyone. Soas not to embarrass him. Respectful right? I try to be an objective instructor. The reason I do this is because I find the more fair and objective I am, and the more respect I give, the more a student get’s out of my class. Some of my cohorts here do not subscribe to that philosophy and have students who routinely bitch about them and their style. The grades of my students reflect my objectivity.
So I care because I know what could happen if he is kicked out. I have a meeting with the dean today at lunch. We’ll see what she says. If the decision is made to put him on academic probation - most likely course of action - I’ll be happy to exert a faculty drop for him, and give him an incomplete.
The other reason I care, is because I was in his boat as well at one point in my life. And personally I have nothing wrong with smoking a little pot.
Lovelyluka - I see students all the time, start off bad and turn themselves around. Not because I talk to them, but because I sense their difficulty and guide the course in such a way as to not affect the other students, but make it a little more accessible for them - study groups, or class on the green - that kind of thing. This kid is spiraling down. I am not his savior, and if he doesn’t put forth the effort I won’t either. I’m fair, but not someone to be trifled with when it comes to grades.
Ask me how much I care about the kid who has an A+ in my class, but is stoned everytime he comes in…Not much. Actually I just graded his paper on Rhetoric of Flannery O’conner and am planning on using it for a reference of what a perfect paper it is.
The kid who is about to crash, does not give that kind of effort. I believe it is the duty of an instructor to put forth their fair share of effort. Granted there is only 45 students in my 202 class but not all of them need extra help.
I have been chastised by other professors about my style, but hey I am the youngest instructor at 33 and I personally don’t give a crap if someone doesn’t like the fact that I wear jeans with a sport coat. In the 5 years I have been here, I have recieved numerous commendations and my students have fun in my classes, and grades are waaay up overall. My students speak for my style.
Hey, Phil.
I’m happy for you that you have a job you care about. And that makes you inspect your values/choices. Way to go.
And the bottom line is that you are going to have to live with your choices. So the way I would think of it is, what scenario would I least like to have pop into my mind when I’m lying in bed? What consequences would give me the most second-thoughts? And no one can answer that question for you other than you.
I don’t know if cynical is the right word to describe me. Maybe I simply lack compassion. But I’ve gotten to the point that I figure there are a certain number of fuck-ups out there, and given my limited energy and resources, I prefer to spend them on the non-fuck-ups.
And if this kid is someone who has been sucking off the mommy/daddy teat of privilege all his life, maybe a wake-up call would be the best thing for him. There’s always community college. Hell, who are we fooling. Mommy and daddy will just pull some strings, write a check, and get him in some other school, and eventually use their influence and connections to get him a job in a family business.
I have nothing against weath, laziness, or drug use. But if I were choosing how I am going to direct my efforts, relatively little would go towards rich lazy stoners.
Moreover, I hate to sound paranoid, but should you do anything “informal” or other than what is specifically required by your institution’s code of conduct, you might be jeopardizing your career. It might be far-fetched, but it is not inconceivable that should this kid be faced with discipline, he might try to deflect attention by making false accusations of you. And if it comes down to the “private” meeting between the 2 of you, it would be his word against yours.
One thing pounded into us as new managers when I started in corporate america was that you should never diagnose the problem - just report symptoms & performance. If I had an employee that got drunk every day, I couldn’t document that he was drunk after lunch. I could, however, write-up that his speech was slurred, his coordination seemed poor, etc.
I would suggest that you treat this student the same way. Judge his performance & not the cause. If he isn’t doing the work necessary to make the grade, don’t diagnose why - just grade the work accurately.
$.02
I just got back from the meeting with the dean. His academic advisor was there, and we spoke about his performance or lack there of as it were. And the dean is superceeding his instructor’s with full academic probation. No option for faculty drop. He’s going to have to buck up or not come back for the fall semester.
You see, teaching at a liberal arts school has some advantages and disadvantages. This student signed a honor code when he came to school, so he must abide by it, or leave. Having done the math, I am not convinced he will be able to turn a cum 1.3 into a 2.9 before the semester ends. Maybe if he aces everything.
So he’s going to have to take his licks.
Dinsdale- I am not worried about our encounter on the green. He may be a slacker, but he’s not vindictive. Plus with this handed down by the dean herself, there will be a shock all in itself for him. I agree with you, there is a small community college right down the road as for him to straighten his ass out.
But if mommy and daddy have a say in it, or if they are enablers, then this will just be the beginning of a series of fuck-ups.
I care because I am a humanitarian. A psychologist for Chrissake!
Belrix :dubious: I beg your pardon, but the day I run a classroom like corporate America is the day I eat green eggs and ham with a side of rocky mountain oysters… It’s my job to diagnose why, whether they know it or not, I’m not out to screw anyone…
Well THERE’S your problem! 
Keep fighting the good fight!
Law school?? Hmmm, are you an attorney- Dinsdale?
[sub]I should probably know this[/sub]
You seem like the kind of attorney I would like to have. Blunt and slightly not cynical. Not that I need an attorney, but if you are a lawyer, I bet your good at it. [sub]I am not tooting anyones horn[/sub]
Mrs.Phlosphr’s publishing attorney happens to be her ex-college roomate…
Um. Well, at my current college, the official policy appears to be to let him get the grades he gets.
But this school is run like corporate America, and has quite a sink-or-swim-by-yourself-stupid-kid mentality.
Good for you for caring this much!
First things first, “Rocky mountain oysters”: Eeewww!
Actually, I’m not advocating “screwing” someone just because they’re using drugs. I used to teach courses at a local technical college & I do understand the pain in watching a student in that spiral towards failure - especially when you know that that spiral could be avoided.
One thing I had to eventually reconcile, after failing several students, is that some of them are doing it to themselves - I’m not “screwing them”, they’re screwing themselves. This realization didn’t make it easier to fail them, it did make it possible for me to stop blaming myself for it, though.
The fact that other students in the class were performing well was proof that the material wasn’t out of reach.
I had to make a decision early in my teaching “career”. Was my goal to educate people or produce graduates? These can be conflicting goals - I could make the class so easy as to graduate everybody with an “A” or I could push them to learn something tough.
Since this was a trade school, I eventually came up with the idea that my goal was to product somebody with whom I’d want to work. In fact, a coworker today is a former student of mine.
However, if the student you’re describing was instead an employee in my company and came to work impaired, he’d be fired eventually for perfomance reasons. This is the real world that this student will eventually be working in; sleeping in the bed he made, etc.
It’s not like this student of yours doesn’t understand the effects of smoking pot. He’s being stupid and will have to learn to reap what he sews. Heck, my sister flunked out of school because she discovered the wonders of the frat-party system and didn’t prioritize her studies. I shared a wall with her apartment, saw the problem, tried to correct it, but when she flunked out I was unable to find too much sympathy. She threw my advice back in my face when I was trying to point out that she was endangering her future. Her career to date has peaked at “Wal-Mart Associate”.
I know there’s a fair number of recreational drug users plus who-knows-how-many functional alcoholics working here at my company. As long as they keep it at home, not on the company time, the company doesn’t have much say in it. If they bring it to work and get fired as a result, I have little sympathy - they brought it on themselves.
I think perhaps you’re too sympathetic because you used to smoke pot in college. Perhaps I’m too callused because I didn’t.
Belrix said:
I would not say I am sympathetic due to an indulgence in college. I would say I am understanding do to my indulgence in college. Student in question will reap what he sews, simply by his own actions. Do I feel bad that he may spiral out of shape? Yes. Will I go beyond what I have already done? Probably not.
Yeah, I’m a liar - uh - lawyer. Whether you’d want me as YOUR attorney, I’m not sure. Seeing as how I’ve piled up all these posts primarily from work!
I’m pretty decent at the very narrow area I practice in, but pretty ignorant of/incompetent at much else.
One thing that is really rewarding in my work is that goal directed straight talk often wins out over mumbo-jumbo legalese.