Stopping genocide, both generally and in specific

Great Debates
1

The advocates and protesters we commonly call “pro-Palestinian” are sometimes their own worst enemies, in my opinion, and (given my knowledge base) I’m a little unsure about the motives of some (especially those who use the phrase “from the river to the sea, again based on current information that I have). But, as with many other issues, I can at least understand where they’re coming from.

I mean, if you think that what’s happening in the Middle East is genocide, as a wide spectrum of reasonable people do, how is it not a moral imperative to attempt to stop it regardless of personal consequence? This is mass murder. If that’s not something we should set aside political ambition for, what the hell is? So I get the anger and frustration too, even that of the radicals who believe that this means that the West must be literally destroyed; I don’t agree, but I can see its origins, and I can’t bring myself to say that it’s totally unreasonable.

And I also struggle with the fact that I see the point that with a situation like Gaza, it’s also reasonable to be concerned with a more far reaching picture beyond stopping the immediate killing, both there and in the United States, even if it doesn’t feel right at times, because again, genocide. The (somewhat controversial) idea that the President can’t practically stop Israel with one phone call or a bunch of firm threats kind of pales sometimes against the very real sheer toll of suffering and death.

So I guess this is kind of a war between brain and visceral emotion, complicated by the fact that I’m not completely certain of the morality sometimes. A lot of Gaza debates on the internet do touch on these feelings of mine, but I do seesaw at times between thinking that the “practical” ones don’t seem to fully understand or sympathize with the activists’ desperation and anger, and that the activists don’t seem to fully understand what it’d truly take to reach their goals and the effects that trying their way could have outside the Middle East. These rarely, to me, seem to be specifically talked about by the relevant side. The practical ones sometimes seem to shrug and say, “we’re doing the best we can” while a slaughter is happening and the activists sometimes don’t seem to acknowledge that reaching their goal will take more and have more ripple effects than they appear to think.

So here’s my attempt to do so. I know how emotional and potentially complicated this topic is, but that’s part of the point. Mods, feel free to move this as you see fit, but I really am interested in even partially resolving my inner conflict.

2

No, it’s a war.

3

As stated in the previous sentence, I’m talking about those “who think that what’s going on in the Middle East is a genocide.” I’m talking about motivations, so any objective truth is actually kind of secondary.

Plus, I created this thread in the hopes of not necessarily repeating discussions in other threads. If I’ve failed, I’d appreciate at least understanding of my intent!

4

And if you think that the 2020 election was stolen and the courts are in on it, then you absolutely should storm the capitol to prevent the fraudulent votes from being certified.

Garbage in, garbage out.

The issue faced by both those who think that Israel/Palestine is a genocide and those who think that the 2020 election was stolen, the reason why there is no good pathway for either groups to achieve their goals, is that the vast majority of Americans disagree.

So, to answer your question, what should you do if you truly believe that Israel is committing a genocide? Well, you should probably take up arms against Israel and the United States.

5

If you’re trying to say that people who believe Israel is perpetrating “mass murder” should do what they think is right, then the only way I can rebut that is by pointing out that they’re incorrect.

6

Dude.

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/americas/one-third-of-american-jews-agree-israel-committed-genocide-in-gaza-poll/3238710

And that was January, May, and June. Far more have died. Famine is rampant. Israel shot the food trucks and blocked aid. That’s not something you can do if your goal is just Hamas and not the Gazan people.

And, no, the only response is not to “take up arms” because that wouldn’t stop it. Personally, as hard as it is to wait, I think we’re already doing the best we can as the US. Some would say we can do more, but, even if so, it’s not a lot more.

I think the protests (at least the DNC ones) at this point are more about channeling impotent anger into action. Any action. It feels bad to know about these things but not to fight. But they know better than to think going over there would do anything, or that they could even get there.

Protest has worked. It has moved the Dems more to the Palestinian side. It has made it where Kamala had to say they’d push for a ceasefire, and Joe keeps on fighting for it. It got the aid flown in and all that stuff.

So it’s at last the one thing that actually has accomplished anything. That’s why they do it.

Debating over what to call it is silly. You seem at this point to be the only person I’ve encountered who specifically gets offended by the word “genocide.” Everyone else I’ve seen object supports Israel’s actions and think the Gaza stuff is propaganda.

@Leaper I do wonder if it will be possible to discuss this without it being taken as given that there is a genocide. It’s very easy for this to become yet another thread debating that.

7

What are you even on about?

I do support Israel’s actions, which is why I object to propaganda like calling it a “genocide”.

And your cites show that a minority of Democrats think that Israel is committing a genocide, and obviously even fewer other Americans do, so thank you for citing my claim for me.

8

One-third, you say? Why, that’s slightly lower than the number of Americans who believe the universe is 6,000 years old!

9

What on Earth kind of discussion would that be?

“From the perspective of someone who believes that Democrats eat babies in the basements of pizza parlors, what is the appropriate course of action?”.

“Clearly, to storm said pizza place with a gun in order to rescue the children from Hillary’s clutches.”

10

Yeah, I was kind of just hoping for the best. At the same time, as you said, the issue seems kind of inaccessible otherwise, and I did and do think it merited discussion. I hoped the “generally” part would give an out, but I may not have put down enough of a foundation.

11

Is it really genocide though?

Yeah, I get what is happening is very bad. Genocide means something though and that is not what is happening. Ethnic cleansing seems closest. And that by itself is very bad too but it is a noticeably different thing from genocide.

This is not meant to make light of what is happening. Far from it. Is this a nitpick without a difference? (I don’t think so.)

And certainly people can be upset about what is happening in Gaza but I do not think pro-Palestinian protestors are doing themselves any favors in undermining Biden/Harris. While Biden/Harris may not be doing all they can Trump would be infinitely worse in this regard (and has basically said so in how he views the conflict).

12

It’s also equal to the example I used, of Americans who think that the election was stolen:

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4384619-one-third-of-americans-say-biden-election-illegitimate/

…you didn’t think I pulled this example out of a hat, do you?

13

I think your premise is flawed: since when does America give a shit about genocide and ethnic cleansing? Is an invasion of, let’s say, Burma, being planned right now?

On the other hand, the President may well have practically stopped Israel from doing lots of things. Not clear how many of those high-level phone calls are in the public record.

14

I think the problem is that there’s not much middle ground in this one. It’s either genocide against Muslims, or it’s Jews righteously defending their people and eliminating an existential threat. And anyone in the middle is angrily demanded to choose one side or the other.

I mean, I don’t like seeing innocent small children and their mothers being starved, blown up, displaced, etc… But nor do I like seeing pictures and hearing stories about innocent Jews who were killed in their homes, kidnapped, raped, killed, etc. in a sneak attack. I also feel like the Gazans have been given the shaft at every opportunity by Israel, but I also understand why the Jews in Israel might react so vigorously to something that was perceived as a sneak attack on their homeland and people, by an enemy who routinely makes genocidal statements about them. In the context of the Holocaust, the emotions that come up with that are very likely extremely hot and fierce- not a measured, calculated response, but more that of self defense and eliminating threats to that homeland and people, regardless of the cost. And I can see why Jews and Muslims elsewhere in the world would react similarly to the people in Israel and Gaza.

But for the rest of us, there’s not a good answer. Adn I think @babale got it right- most people don’t really disagree with Israel’s response, even if it’s considered regrettable. Hamas was the legitimate government of Gaza prior to all this, and they started this. This is literally a war between two states, not an insurgency. And Hamas is in the “find out” part of FAFO with Israel right now.

I also think there’s no small element of compassion fatigue going on here; I mean I’ve heard about the PLO, Palestinians, Israel, etc… for most of my life. It does always seem like the Palestinians start shit and act up, and then Israel stops it. And then they always cry foul when they get slapped around. So maybe there’s a component of wanting this to just be over and done with, however that turns out, as callous as that is.

15

Not really. Ethnic cleansing is just the early stages of genocide, when it’s not just a polite term for it.

And what the Israelis are doing is genocide and has been for decades; they are basically reprising what the US did to the American Indians. A few decades at most and the Palestinians will all be gone or dead.

17

This thread pretty much went how I thought it would. As it is just rehashing arguments from several other threads, I’m going to close it.
It isn’t worth the bother.