Straight, Cisgendered, White Male here and I truly don't understand Alt Right and Trump supporters.

In My Humble Opinion
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White people are nowhere near the only people ever called racist.

That is white victimhood nonsense. Hell, you brought up one of the non-white cultures that is commonly accused of racism: non-Japanese people in Japan talk about being discriminated against all the time. It’s one of the few places where a white person can actually talk about systematic racism. I even remember a thread on the Dope about an example.

You also miss the entire point of the post you were replying to. The idea that immigrants are “displacing white people” is itself white supremacist nonsense. White people are not displaced by immigrants. We live along side each other.

What they view as displacement is their own choice to try and live in white-only communities. They see non-white people as encroaching on their way of life. But that’s only because they want a life without any non-white people in it.

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The problem I have with explanations based on what these people believe is that it just takes the problem back a step. Why in the world do they believe these things? How did things change from when I was a kid, when I was taught by everyone that discriminating against someone for being different was wrong? I avoided saying “black” for a while not because I was liberal, but because I was told that it might offend people. Yet now avoiding saying anything is a horrible gross affront!

And how did a nation full of people going to church not internalize the whole “love your neighbor” stuff? When I was growing up, I thought liberals were wrong, and maybe that some of the things they did were bad, but never once was I taught to hate them. But now that’s the common thread holding all of the right together.

The only thing I can say that I believed growing up as a conservative that fits modern conservatism is the whole abortion thing. But there were just so many other things that there’s no way I could have ever supported someone as hateful as Trump. The only racism I ever had growing up was the accidental kind, not the alt-right’s belief that white people are superior.

I don’t understand how the people I grew up with, who shared the values I had, can have shifted so far to be able to support Trump. My only conclusion can possibly be that they’ve been lying the whole time. Heck, do they even believe in God?

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Case in point. You’ve described some beliefs. But none of them make sense.

First off, your father has never in his life been required to identify as cisgender. He’s apparently upset about something that he has never experienced. It would be rude as fuck to ever ask anyone if they were cis or trans, because it would be treating trans people as different than cis people.

The whole “rights as circle” idea is 100% correct. And it’s exactly why he shouldn’t have the right to force someone else to not go to the same restroom as him because of their genitals. The idea that he’s being forced to accept them makes no sense–that’s what the circle is about: you have to tolerate everyone else, as long as what they do doesn’t harm you in any way. Someone else using the stall beside you does not impact his rights, his wife’s rights, his daughter’s rights, any of that.

Plus, if he’s been socialized like any guy I know, he’s been taught to never look at another man’s genitals, and only at a woman’s if she’s showing it off for him. Women also don’t look at each other’s private parts. So they wouldn’t even fucking know.

No, the only reason any of that makes sense is that they’ve got this idea that trans women are sexual predators who are out to get their children. But where the fuck did that idea come from?

The only idea that I can get is that some assholes lied to them about it, preying on their fears. But why the fuck did they believe them?
Of course, I do note that none of this answers the OP, since it asked about Trump supporters and the alt-right. So he’s asking about white supremacists and people who (still) support a crooked idiot who goes against all the morals they used to claim they believed in.

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The whole cisgender thing may seem unrelated but it’s part of the overall state of mind behind the current conservative worldview and I believe you’d find a big overlap in the Venn diagram between Trump supports and those that don’t want to call themselves cisgender.

I’m using my father as an example of people who feel this way - and there are a lot of people out there that feel this way, and they vote without fail. It’s possible to try to understand the mindset of others without actually accepting it.

I’m attempting to explain the mindset as a way of helping people understand that yes, as nonsensical as it sounds, this is exactly how people think and believe. This is why the thread was started. I think that everyone should understand that THIS IS ACTUALLY WHAT PEOPLE THINK AND BELIEVE (you know the South Park episode where they explain Scientology?). If not, they’re never going to understand why people vote the way they do, or cheer on Trump, etc.

To your points:-

(1) If you told my father he has to identify himself as cisgender he’d think that was a stupid overly-politically-correct liberal overreach that was imposing on his identity. Just like a lot of inclusive things liberals like to do.

(2) From my father’s point of view (and I know this because he’s explained this to me) his daughters and granddaughters should have the right to use a bathroom without men, whether or not they’re currently wearing a skirt. They can wear a skirt all they want, he’s fine with that, but they can’t infringe his daughters’ and granddaughters’ rights.

Which hearkens back to the rights circle. He believes women have the right to use a bathroom without transgender. You do not. You think transgender’s right to use the bathroom of their choice has priority. You disagree. This is a thing that happens, and why we have political parties in the first place. You may think he’s wrong but… that’s not going to change his mind. Trust me, I’ve tried. And I think it’s a valuable exercise to try to open your mind and understand his point of view as well, even if you reject it, in order to understand the current groundswell of populism in the US and where I’m seeing it in the UK (although of course it’s about different issues, we’re not debating bathrooms over here).

If it doesn’t matter who uses what bathroom because we’re not staring at genitals, why’s it so important what bathroom transgender get to use? If it doesn’t matter, then surely they can use the men’s bathroom without issue. Are you saying that the men will treat transgender poorly if they use the men’s bathroom? (If yes - you’re saying men are a bunch of mindless evil brutes.) And the women are nicer so it’s safer if they use their bathroom? (If so, you’re forcing the women to accept the situation because they’re nicer and less likely to speak out.) It’s a mindfield. I think you should debate my father about this, he’s thought about it a lot.

There are legions of people who think like this. They voted for Pence in Indiana, where I’m from. Putting your head in the sand and declaring it nonsensical and wrong won’t make it go away.

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It matters only to the extent that people in restrooms do notice how other people look and present overall, even though we’re not looking at genitals. People expect other people to be using the restroom that conforms to the gender that they look and present as.

If I go into the women’s restroom and see a big burly bearded guy there, my first instinct is not going to be to think “Ah, this is probably a transgender man who was born with a vagina and he’s in here because some transphobic people think he shouldn’t use the men’s room”; it’s going to be “Excuse me, sir, did you realize this was the ladies’ room?” And that thought process probably goes double for cisgender men walking into the men’s room and seeing a lovely lady in a skirt and high heels.

Unfortunately, there are quite a few men who are such mindless evil brutes that they will indeed assault a transgender person merely for using what they consider to be the “wrong” restroom. But it’s not just men: transgender women have been assaulted by other women for the same reason. We don’t have to assume that all men, or women, are mindless evil brutes in order to recognize that this subset poses a significant threat to transgender people.

Yes, ideally it would be nice if everyone could just use any group restroom they wanted and mind their own business and not harass anybody else. At present, though, the group restrooms that are available in public are segregated by gender. Therefore, transgender women should use the women’s restroom along with the other women, and transgender men should use the men’s restroom along with the other men.

But trying to pretend that it’s not nonsensical and wrong isn’t going to get us anywhere either. It’s not as though people with nonsensical wrong ideas like “women have the right to use a bathroom without transgender” (which completely ignores the rights of women who happen to BE transgender to use their preferred bathroom) are suddenly going to make the switch to common sense and decency if only we try hard enough to understand them.

I agree it doesn’t do any good to be insulting and dismissive in person to people who didn’t ask for your opinion on their nonsensical wrong ideas. Nor does it do any good to “put our head in the sand”, as you say, and deny that they exist or that they’re very committed to their nonsensical wrong ideas. But when we’re discussing this issue frankly with people who’ve voluntarily joined the discussion, we shouldn’t try to sugarcoat the analysis or refrain from calling out nonsense and wrongness when we see it.

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Liberals think this belief is nonsensical and wrong. (Of course transgender women are women. To think otherwise is to be dickheads and ignore reality and biology.)

Conservatives/Trump supporters believe liberals are idiots. (Of course transgender women are men in dresses pretending to be women. To think otherwise is to be delusional and ignore reality and biology.)

Where does that get us? We can’t just shout at each other, I mean that’s what we’ve been doing this whole time. It’s getting us nowhere.

The OP of this thread seems to be genuine about trying to understand Trump supporters. I applaud that and hope that we can all understand, even without acceptance. Once we understand we can try to influence.

Just shouting that it’s wrong and nonsensical doesn’t help and gets people’s backs up.

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To support that view, the conservatives/Trump supporters need to have a serious rational answer to the question: Why are these “men in dresses” “pretending to be women”, to the extent of seeking to present as women in all aspects of their lives, even public restrooms, and affirming that they actually identify as women?

I mean, there exists an actual category of Men in Dresses Pretending To Be Women: they’re called male crossdressers, people who identify as men but sometimes enjoy dressing up and presenting as women for their personal recreation.

Transgender women, who identify as women all the time and desire to live and present as women, don’t fit into this category. Why are they so committed to the idea of personally and permanently identifying as women, and being accepted as women, in their entire persona both private and public?

Merely asserting “They’re nuts” isn’t an explanation. Liberals at least have a sensible and meaningful, though still not fully understood, answer to this question in modern theories of gender identity and transgender. Conservatives are completely incapable of explaining it except by denigrating it as some incomprehensible crazy shit.

If two people of opposing views are both claiming the support of reality and biology, I think the credibility prize is, objectively, better deserved by the one who can actually make a coherent argument for their view based on reality and biology.

Yes, I already pointed that out. But we can’t let ourselves get so open-minded that our brains fall out, as the saying is. There are rational and scientific reasons for considering the above-described conservative view on this subject to be wrong and nonsensical, and we shouldn’t shut our eyes to them in an effort to become more “understanding”. You can’t improve your understanding of stupid beliefs by refusing to recognize their stupidity.

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Perhaps I’m not giving them much credit, but I don’t think conservatives see much difference between cross-dressers and transgender, honestly. They think that if you are XY and born with a penis, you’re a man, whether you have surgery and live as a woman, or only wear a dress part time. It’s black and white, simple thinking. It’s what my mother thinks, and she wouldn’t care a rat’s buttock if some liberal on the internet doesn’t think it’s worth a credibility prize. In the real world, hordes of people like this exist, and there are no credibility prizes to deny them.

You either put blinkers on, say “your beliefs are stupid and you are stupid”, or you learn, identify, and make space for their point of view. Turning your back on them and instituting your own sort of black-and-white thinking is following exactly what they are doing. I agree it’s tempting, but it’s not constructive.

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Well, you said it, I didn’t.

This is a nice-sounding pious platitude that in this context doesn’t seem to make any sense whatever. In the first place, of course I’m not advocating calling anybody stupid. As I already pointed out, I don’t even advocate offering them an unsolicited opinion that their beliefs are stupid.

But exactly what are you claiming that the (allegedly sole) alternative of “learn, identify, and make space for their point of view” is likely to accomplish here? According to your own statement, this “point of view” is “black and white, simple thinking” with zero interest in actually understanding any of the scientific issues involved.

I can certainly see why somebody holding one of these simple-thinking opinions with no interest in learning or facts wouldn’t change their mind because of some liberal calling them stupid. But AFAICT they also aren’t at all likely to change their mind because of some liberal being willing to “learn, identify, and make space for their point of view”, whatever that actually means in practice, if anything.

You brought up the example of your mother, and you know her and I don’t. What do you think plausibly would persuade her to take an interest in finding out scientific facts, such as they are, on the issue of transgender identity? You note that liberals sneering at her on the internet won’t do it, but AFAICT nothing else will either (you’ve apparently already tried and failed with your father, for instance). So what’s the point of our fastidiously refusing to acknowledge that your parents’ beliefs on transgender identity are largely based in ignorance and rejection of science, at least when your parents aren’t in the room to have their feelings hurt by it?

So again, what do you think that your recommended alternative is actually going to be able to construct?

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What is the point, indeed.

I’d like to think I’ve had an influence on my dad’s way of thinking. Over time he’s changed his stance somewhat. He voted for Obama both times and didn’t vote for Trump. He listens to me when I speak to him about politics and theology and philosophy, even though we differ on a great many things. He’s not keen on the transgender thing. I’m working on it.

Because we listen to each other and don’t get angry with each other, we are able to influence each other.

For my mother, she won’t even listen to me. We don’t talk about these things. She gets angry, tells me off, and isn’t above hitting me. And as a result she’s more entrenched in these things than she was when I was a child. But, if I told her that she and her ideas were stupid, do you think she would listen to me even as much as she does now? Not on your life.

Being open and honest and thoughtful nets you more converts and gentler thinking, than being an abrasive know-it-all who thinks these Trump voters will drop all they believe in the bright pure rays of godlike scientifically-informed logic.

There’s a lovely study that came out in the last few years that identified five or so different factors that we take into account when we form political opinions. The moral foundation theory. There are other theories that take off from this. The main takeaway is that conservatives just value different things than liberals do.

Even so, they are definitely not going to listen to us if we are jerks to them.

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You catch more flies with honey than vinegar

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You catch even more with a giant pile of horseshit.

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I don’t think even the most “abrasive” of us know-it-alls considers that Trump voters in general are significantly influenced by scientifically-informed logic. That’s kind of my point.

And apparently you don’t actually think we should be “open and honest” with Trump voters about the ignorance and anti-science prejudice influencing their beliefs. What you mean by being “thoughtful”, AFAICT, is basically refraining from disagreeing from them to any observable extent, because they’re very touchy about being disagreed with.

Well, that study and the many similar discussions of “moral foundations” are talking about different ways of focusing on various moral principles, such as care vs. harm, liberty vs. oppression, and so forth.

But the fundamental lack of “common ground” with Trump voter types isn’t primarily about their different priorities concerning moral principles, but rather about their deep-rooted lack of interest in rational thinking and facts.

A person who, to use the example you gave, doesn’t even understand that there’s a difference between a transgender woman and a male crossdresser, and refuses to find out or listen to any additional knowledge about the subject, is not just focusing on different moral priorities. They’re abdicating the fundamental responsibility of a rational adult to pay attention to reason and facts.

I don’t see how any amount of being “thoughtful” and polite about their moral principles is going to make any headway against their entrenched belief that every available source of knowledge about factual reality can be safely ignored if it’s telling them something they don’t want to hear. That’s not ultimately a morality difference, it’s an epistemological one.

The problem seems to be that they are definitely not going to listen to us if we are deferential and conciliatory to them, either. Unless perhaps we are literally their own daughter, and often not even then.
So, y’know, :dubious:. It’s not that I want to (or ever do) go around picking unsolicited political quarrels with Trump voters and insulting their opinions, because that would be rude. (The opinions of Trump voters and other conservatives who voluntarily show up to participate in political discussions in forums such as these, on the other hand, are fair game.)

It’s just that I’m profoundly unimpressed by pious exhortations to the effect that if we stop pointing out in general discussions the logical and factual flaws in the views of Trump voters, it will allegedly “net us more converts” and make them more receptive to hearing different views and making rational judgments. AFAICT, there’s absolutely no evidence that such claims are true.

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Okay, so I said “being open and honest and thoughtful” and you took that to mean:

Which is not what I said at all, which I am pretty sure is what they call a strawman argument, right?

In which case, you are basically arguing with yourself, which is perfectly fine, but also a bit of an echo chamber, if you know what I mean. You’re never going to learn anything new that way.

But feel free to do so below.