Assuming that the question is yes I have the following followup questions!
The mechanic diagnosed the problem as being a fault ignition switch. He then told me the switch would be $120 minimum and then the additional labor. I want to do it myself figuring that it should save me a ton of money. Here’s the car. 1991 Subaru Loyale with 2 WD. I pulled off all the housing around the steering column and it doesnt look to be a huge deal to replace the ignition switch but I’m not really a car person so I could be completely wrong.
How hard would it really be for me to do this on my own having at hand only the internet and maybe a Chiltons manual? What exactly would I be looking to replace? I searched online and found “Ignition Switches” and “Ignition Starters” with the price difference being about $100. What’s the difference? I think that’s all I have right now. If you have any questions about the car let me know and I’ll respond ASAP. Thanks in advance for your help!
** The problem that lead me to take my car in was that the brand new battery would be drained after sitting for only a short period of time in the lot. A jump always solved the problem (starter is new and shouldnt be the issue because of this), the car always indicated a solid 12-14 volts while driving (leaving out the alternator), and the batter itself was brand new, replaced when we thought it was the issue. The mechanics tested the wiring from battery to ignition and found that the amount of voltage getting to and through the ignition switch was far lower than it should be. There diagnosis was therefore a faulty ignition switch.
The only problem I could see from looking in both a Chiltons and Haynes manuals, Subaru ignition switches are installed with shear bolts. Shear bolts are designed to have the hex drive break off at a set torque, they are used as a security measure to make cars harder to steal. To remove the switch the bolts have to have the head drilled and an easy out tool used to remove the bolts. The new switch is installed with new shear bolts. Messing up drilling out the old bolts could make your car undriveable. It would depend on how comfortable you are attempting such a project as to whether you do it or let a mechanic. I was able to find replacement switches online in the $45 to $55 range.
The only problem I could see from looking in both a Chiltons and Haynes manuals, Subaru ignition switches are installed with shear bolts. Shear bolts are designed to have the hex drive break off at a set torque, they are used as a security measure to make cars harder to steal. To remove the switch the bolts have to have the head drilled and an easy out tool used to remove the bolts. The new switch is installed with new shear bolts. Messing up drilling out the old bolts could make your car undriveable. It would depend on how comfortable you are attempting such a project as to whether you do it or let a mechanic. I was able to find replacement switches online in the $45 to $55 range.
There is a product know as Helicoil inserts for klutzes who mess up drilling out a bolt/screw. Look like lozenge shaped cross section wire wound into a spring. Tap an oversize hole, screw in the Helicoil, and then the torqed mounting bolt. … Good as new!
Hypothetically I mess up the bolts. What’s keeping my from letting the ignition switch just dangle there? For that matter what’s keeping me from installing a new one and running the wires to it and leaving the old one there? It’s a 1991 with a bit of rust and dents all over. Not the most wanted car to steal. I don’t really think I need to mount it securely. Maybe I’m just crazy but I’m really looking for the cheapest easiest solution to get the car to March. At that point I buy my parents off lease car.
Most of the Japanese design ignition switches I can recall at the moment were held in with two Phillips screws. The hardest part of replacing them is removing enough stuff for access, and that’s usually not terribly hard. Included in that is access to where the switch’s harness plugs in, which is usually about a foot of wire length away from the switch itself.
If it does have shear screws for the switch, there are two ways to deal with them that don’t involve drilling. The simplest, if access is good, is to cut slots into the screw heads with a hacksaw or Dremel tool cut-off wheel, then turn the screws out with a screwdriver. The other is to use a hammer with a sharp cemter punch or small chisel on the edge of the screw heads to knock them loose (when they’re loose enough, they can be turned out by hand or with pliers).
But before replacing the ignition switch, I’d make sure it was needed. The explanation posted does not make sense.
The problem that lead me to take my car in was that the brand new battery would be drained after sitting for only a short period of time in the lot.
This suggests that there is excessive drain on the battery.
The mechanics tested the wiring from battery to ignition and found that the amount of voltage getting to and through the ignition switch was far lower than it should be.
Voltage getting to the switch will not be addressed by replacing the switch (unless it’s related to a poor connection in the switch’s connector or wiring harness). Low voltage coming out of the switch would be a switch problem if there were proper voltage going into the switch. But either way, that wouldn’t drain the battery.
Now, a switch that failed to completely turn off electrically could cause a battery drain, but I would expect that to be described as too much voltage going through the switch (with the key off) – not as being lower than it should be. The problem as described and the diagnosis as related do not jive. There is either miscommunication or misdiagnosis (or both) involved here.
A few random notes:
Many people confuse an ignition switch (electrical part not visible with steering column shrouds in place) with an ignition lock cylinder (what the key goes into). You and the mechanic seem to be using the term correctly, but don’t assume that all parts suppliers will.
In 30+ years of professional auto repair, I have never seen or heard the term “ignition starter.” I would question the reliability of anyone using it.
Ignition cylinders and switches are difficult to get at and replace by design. You didn’t say what the labor charge was going to be, but it may be worth having someone else who’s done them before do the job.
You also didn’t say if your car has an airbag or not - if you do, that’s a whole 'nother issue to deal with - one wrong move and the bag blows. Could be very painful if you had a tool in your hand at the time.
I’ll also further the sentiment that a bad ignition switch is an unlikely cause of a rapidly drained battery. I don’t think I’ve ever heard of a charging curcuit directly involving the switch - usually, it’s just power in, a momentary (as you turn the key) connection to the starter solenoid, a steady connection to the ignition circuit in the run position, as well as “accessory” power to things like the radio in both the run and accessory (turn the key down) positions.
If anything, I could see how a shorted accessory contact could be supplying power to the radio and whatnot, and if the radio’s left on, that could run down the battery. But otherwise, my suspicions are elsewhere - has an actual charging system diagnosis been done? Are you positive the alternator’s good? Just because you’re getting 13.8 volts with the engine running doesn’t mean you’re getting enough current. Are you positive the battery is good? There could be an internal short between cells, for instance.
Just got back from having the alternator tested. Was told the alternator was in good shape and shouldn’t be the problem.
My car does not have an airbag which could make it a bit easier to get at anything on the column if necessary.
Guy at the repair shop said it would be about $130 for the new ignition switch and $120 or so for labor. The car isn’t worth spending the $250 at the moment if I can figure out and come up with another solution.
The only connection that could be made to the problem and the mechanics diagnosis would seem to be some sort of short in the switch. Seems to me I would notice if something wasn’t shutting off. all the light go off when the car is shut off. I turn the CD player off regularly and I know the light goes off. Is there something I wouldn’t see on once the car was off that could still be draining the battery or are we just looking at some random short circuit in the line?
The cheap solution I found was a switch on the battery. No possible way for it to drain when it’s just sitting around then.
That might be right and reasonable, but it sounds significantly higher than it’s been on most Asian cars I’ve done a switch replacement on.
Not all energized circuits would be detectable. If you want to be certain about battery drain, the thing to do is measure it with an ammeter.
Cheap, but not necessarily convenient. Memory items, such as clocks and radio presets, would be lost each time. Then there’s the possibility that it’s not a battery drain issue (though that still seems the most likely suspect from what we know so far). For example, it’s not impossible to have a new battery that is defective and won’t hold a charge properly.
Well if it was me and I wasn’t too concerned about security, I’d just hotwire it and install a toggle switch for the ignition and a push button for the starter, in the dash somewhere.
From post #1: “…battery would be drained after sitting for only a short period of time in the lot.”
From post #11: “…all the electrical stuff works, but the starter motor does nothing…Days go by without the problem, and then it suddenly hits again.”
Those strike me as fundamentally different problems. Just because they both respond to a jump start doesn’t mean they’re both caused by the same thing.
Now, let me back up and double-check the description in post #1. Are you sure the battery is drained (not “sure the car won’t start,” not “sure it will start with a jump,” but sure the battery is drained – i.e., has low voltage and will fail a load test)? If so, you have a faulty battery or an excessive drain on the battery.
The car in the message you found almost certainly has a faulty starter, a faulty ignition switch (not causing a drain, but failing to energize the starter circuit*), or a poor connection somewhere in the battery/starter circuits.
*This could be consistent with the description from post #1 of low voltage from the ignition switch. It is absolutely not consistent with the battery being drained after sitting a short while.
In all cases the following would happen. Battery would be around 10 volts. You can hear it pop the starter into position but apparently not enough power to actually turn over. Everything else seems normal during start up.
If the battery rest voltage (nothing turned on, nothing trying to operate) is about 10 volts, there’s definitely a faulty battery (won’t take/hold a charge, dead cell) or a significant drain on the battery. Rest voltage should be 12.6 volts. Plus or minus one or two tenths of a volt is okay, but a deviation of over 2 volts is clearly a problem.
I would test for drain with an ammeter. Ammeters tend to be expensive, but if you can borrow one you could double-check it yourself. Be sure to hook it up properly (in series between the negative battery post and negative battery cable terminal) and it should have a 10 amp DC capability (a 2 amp DC one might work, but if the drain is bigger than that it might fry the ammeter). The spec is likely a maximum of 30 milliamps (50 mA for some cars). If the drain is within specs, and the alternator is working properly, it can only be a bad battery.
If the drain is beyond specs, some circuit is energized when it shouldn’t be. Presumably this is what the mechanic mentioned in post #1 concluded. The description of what he said does not reassure me that his identification of the ignition switch being the source of the problem is correct (see post #6).
The problem with wiring around the whole ignition switch is that there are several circuits involved (ignition, accessory, starter, maybe others). That coupled with my questions about the accuracy of the diagnosis make me fear it may be a lot of trouble for possibly no gain.
If there is indeed a drain caused by the ignition switch, you could install a switch on the power wire (12 volt from the battery) to the switch. It would be like the battery disconnect discussed earlier but wouldn’t cause loss of memory functions.
Fixed! The problem was apparently the faulty starter switch. This faulty switch mucked up the starter which repeatedly would jam. So after replacing the switch I got the starter replaced for free (yay lifetime warranties). Soon after the alternator wouldn’t put out enough juice and also needed replacing. Now I’m back in business. Thanks to all those who provided information. I learned a lot about my car and got it fixed!