Straight Pride!!(not in high school, though)

I wasn’t arguing the issue of where the traits spring from. I was commenting on the article’s choice of other “traits.” No, it doesn’t explicitly say that they are violent drunks, hence my comment on subtlety.

Here’s some more of their writings so you can make a better judgement:

In response to a homosexual asserting “being gay is natural for me” they stated:

“Racial discrimination and child abuse occur frequently in society, but that does not make them “natural” in the moral sense.”

Here we have to wait until the very end for them to throw in the word “despised”:

“All the crosscurrents of present-day liberation struggles are subsumed in the gay struggle. The gay moment is in some ways similar to the moment that other communities have experienced in the nation’s past, but it is also something more, because sexual identity is in crisis throughout the population, and gay people-at once the most conspicuous subjects and objects of the crisis-have been forced to invent a complete cosmology to grasp it. No one says the changes will come easily. But it’s just possible that a small and despised sexual minority will change America forever.”

Let’s not forget to get the Nazis into the act:

"While Adolf Hitler is today recognized as the central figure of Nazism, he was a less important player when the Nazi machine was first assembled. Its first leader was Ernst Roehm. Homosexual historian Frank Rector writes that “Hitler was, to a substantial extent, Roehm’s protegé”

They go on to make reference to Roehm being gay. Inferring that a gay person started the Nazi regime. Then they continue by trying to “prove” that Hitler himself was gay.

One more tidbit (there are plenty more if you wish):

“Sadly, the homosexual dimension of Nazi history is overlooked by many historians. As Duberman, Vicinus and Chauncey have stated with the title to their “gay studies” text, the role of homosexuals and pederasts has been Hidden from History. They, of course, imagine the influence of homosexuality to be positive. From the Judeo-Christian cultural context, however, the rise of homosexuality necessarily represents the diminution of Biblical morality as a restraint on human passions. Consequently, where Judeo-Christian ideals decrease, violence and depravity increase.”

In conlusion, no, I’m not fucking kidding you. Still too subtle, or do you see the pattern?

I saw a few requests for a cite on where I saw that they were allowed to wear “gay pride” shirts and other articles of clothing.

I didn’t read it on the internet, but saw two stories on CNN and FoxNews(one on each) that mentioned it specificaly, showing the shirts and buttons that were worn.

I guess it’s sort of one of those, “I can’t show you but I promise I didn’t make up that part of the story.”

I can’t think of any off hand. I think the reason is that people aren’t too interested in the possible genetic causes for completely benign patterns of behavior. I’m sure that scientists do study them, but they rarely make the news because they hold little interest beyond the merely academic.

That is sort of how I view the genetics of homosexuality. It is an interesting scientific question, but the outcome should not guide any of the social issues. If there turns out to be no genetic cause for homosexuality, then that doesn’t suddenly make it ok to harrass gays. If there turns out to be a genetic cause for homosexuality, then that doesn’t mean we should try to find the cure. It is irrelevent.

I am convinced that homosexuality is not a choice and that it is not pathological, nor is it the result of some pathology. This is what guides my opinion on the subject.

Yeah. Well. Anybody actually want to discuss the right wingers who apparantly want queer kids beaten up, I guess for their own good- that being the point of my original post, and I still think it’s a more interesting (and disturbing) issue than this whole tee-shirt thing.

Phoenix Dragon:

If someone has not had sex “at all” then they cannot be defined as ‘gay’ or ‘straight’. They are essentially non-sexual. And this again gets at the root of why these so-called ‘safe zones’ are a bad idea. Would you want to create a ‘safe zone’ for high school virgins vs. those that are sexually active? Would you defend a high school kid’s right to wear a shirt that said “I got laid last night”?

When you’re an adult being gay or straight means many different things. But when you’re in high school it means one thing and one thing only. Who you want to have sex with.

Actually, in reading my above post, ‘non-sexual’ is a poor choice of words. Untill you actually have sex you cannot truely define yourself sexually.

Excuse me, but…WHAT THE HELL?

I truly hate to burst your fantasy bubble, Ants, but your sexuality is more than who you sleep with. It’s who you fantasize about. It’s who you’re attracted to. It’s who you fall in love with.

Assuming you’re straight, were you not straight before the first time you had sex? Sexual orientation is not just defined by who you’ve slept with in the past.

Man, it’s hard to fight ignorance when it keeps popping up like a Whack-A-Mole (with apologies to SDMB’s Whack-A-Mole).

jayjay

I second Jayjay here. Having sex has nothing to do with it. Most people I know either knew their orientation, or strongly suspected such, well before they had sex. Just like a straight person can fall in love with someone without having had sex yet, so can a gay person (Or bisexual, whatever).

For example, Hail Ant, did you consider (Or at least, strongly suspect) yourself to be (Straight/gay/bisexual) before you had sex? (Or now, if you havn’t)

Hail Ants, first of all let me back up jayjay and PhoenixDragon and say that the arguement that those who have not had sex cannot be measured on any scale.

Let me give you an example. Myself, for instance. I’m still a virgin at 31, and yet I know for a fact that I am bisexual, tending more toward homosexual than heterosexual. I am more turned on by women than men, I tend to fantasize about women rather than men (but do fantasize about both). I know this without ever having had any sort of sexual congress with either sex. But it is certainly something I can define.

Now, on to your point that the “Safe Zones” are a bad idea.

Again, we are not talking about a club, nor an after-school gathering to discuss who put what into which of Bobby’s orifici. We’re talking about teachers who have had training, so that when Billy realizes that he’d rather date the quarterback than the head cheerleader he has someone he can be pretty sure won’t be judgemental he can talk to about it.

Or, more importantly, when Suzie realizes that she’d rather date the cheerleader (female) than the quarterback, and because her church has told her that it’s dirty and sinful to feel that way she’s better off killing herself than living, and she decides she has to turn to an adult somewhere she can go to one of the teachers who’s had this training and not get the same message she would have gotten at home or at church, but instead would be told that suicide is not the answer, and that she can be a Good Person [super]tm[/super]. Even that she never has to act on her feelings if she can’t reconcile them - but in a way that won’t cause more emotional damage so that instead of committing suicide she goes on to live and find a cure for cancer (hypothetical deliberately inflated). Or just goes on to live.

Why is having this kind of support for kids at risk such a bad thing?

Admittedly, (as I think pepperlandgirl brought up in the other thread), it would be better if this could be somehow extended to all teens at risk, but thus far I don’t think anyone’s come up with a solution, and I think that is a topic for another thread.

What I want to know is why it’s such a bad thing to have teachers with special skills available to children at risk?

And as far as the whole orifici thing goes, the hets already have a club for that, anyway, AFAIK. It’s called “the boy’s locker room.” :wink:

I’m going to bed now:

should, of course, be finished with the words, “is nonsense.”

Goodnight.

Yeah, but these almost always include:

Who you fantasize about (having sex with)
Who you’re attracted to (sexually)
Who you fall in love with (including physically)

And I realize you can fall in love with someone emotionally, but it is extremely rare for it to not include physically too.

And these are all doubly true for teenagers. And no, until you actually do it with someone, you cannot be 100% sure of your sexuality.

And I reiterate: My Republican friends consider my a liberal (I consider myself a realist).

I still don’t get it, Hail Ants. If you aren’t gay, straight, or bi-sexual before you have sex, then how do you know who to have sex with? By random chance?

I’m not sure why you need to have sex with someone in order to see if you want to have sex with them. It doesn’t work that way, in my experience.

There was no doubt in my mind that I liked girls from the age of 5 until the age of 41 (well, I actually prefer women now). I probably had my first sexual fantasy around 12-13. My first round of intercourse wasn’t until I was 16.

I think it’s quite possible, even likely, to know your orientation long before you do the deed.

Are you saying that the gender of someone’s first experience determines their sexuality? I’d guess that quite a few homosexuals had their initial sexual contact with someone of the opposite sex.

Yup :slight_smile:

Look, Ants, this arguement simply isn’t true. Okay? Don’t get hung up on the “sex” part of Sexual Orientation. Humans are more complicated than that. Try the Ask the Gay Guy threads for more information.

Would you like to address my question about why having Safe Zones for kids at risk of suicide (among other problems) is such a bad thing, rather than yanking the discussion in this direction?

WTF does this have to do with anything?

Here’s a newsflash…teenagers are sexual beings! People don’t suddenly switch on their sexuality at 18, and they shouldn’t. So if gay support groups in high school are sex clubs, what are school dances? Sex clubs for straights?

But that doesn’t mean that gay support groups are about only sex. It may get talked about…it’s a group of teenagers. But the attitude that any talk about sex among teenagers is evil, evil, evil and shouldn’t be sanctioned by the school system is…well, wonky.

And you’re still about four rings off the bullseye with your insistence that one must have sex before one knows what one’s orientation is. I’ve never slept with a woman, because I have absolutely no desire to do so. How do I know this? Because I feel no desire for women…duh. Whereas I’ve always felt desire for men, even before I ever did anything with any of them.

jayjay

One more time.

The OP was not talking about “groups.” The OP was talking about a situation where individual teachers have had special training in dealing with GLBT teens, and have a sticker/poster in their classrooms indicating such.

This is not to say that there aren’t gay support groups in some high schools, nor that I think they’re a bad thing (I don’t). This isn’t to say that a group of teens might not approach a particular instructor at one time.

And kids (teens in particular) are going to talk about sex. That’s been going on probably since the first teen fell out of their tree - and has probably been driving parents nuts about as long.

Sorry, dogsbody…my brain cramped up and got distracted from the OP. I have two hot buttons…that your orientation is all about having sex, and that teenagers are some sort of asexual larval stage that, in a perfect world, should have no sexual feelings at all until the magic age of 18. Hail Antz pushed both of those.

jayjay

Trust me, I agree with you, and understand completely where you’re coming from. He hit my buttons, too - but, to be fair to Mahaloth I think this thread’s been hijacked enough. :wink:

Besides, I’m waiting for HA to defend his position that kids at risk shouldn’t have these trained teachers to turn to.

I had gay feelings back in the fourth grade - I had a crush on Freddie White, followed him around like a puppy dog. I certainly didn’t want to have sex with him, for at that tender age I had not yet been visited by the puberty fairy. I never had those kinds of feelings for girls.

I kissed a girl in high school once - that was it. After the puberty fairy visited me, it was all about boys, but, of course, we’re all supposed to be straight, so I had a girl friend that I liked, and we kissed - once. That was it. Then I went to college, met openly gay people, realized what was going on, and came out. Dated three men before having sex for the first time, which was about a year after I came out - my first time ever having sex.

Still gay, still not interested in women. So since I’ve never had sex with a woman, does that mean I’m a latent heterosexual?

Your reasoning, HA, as already pointed out, is flawed.

[aside]I find it amusing that HA is also the initials for the “conversion therapy” group Homosexuals Anonymous.[/aside]

Esprix