I’d like to know how we would win this war against terrorist like this. From what I hear, OBL has landed the United States in a huge strategic trap in its effort to divide both groups of people (Western and Muslim) in animosity of each other. So I was wondering, instead of using heavy handed tactics and invading countries which have nothing to do with Islamism and then in turn breeds it more what alternatives are there?
You cannot possibly fight a ‘war’ against terrorism. That would be a good point to start from.
Do you have a more approprate noun in mind, Avenger?
Must there necesarily be one noun? Somethings are more complicated than can be condensced into one soundbite (sorry Americans 
)
By the way, I am not suggesting that there is no military aspect in combatting terrorism, military operations can be conducted against identified groups/individuals of course. But conducting a war on ‘terrorism’ as an entity is impossible. Any misguided person who tried such a thing would probably just end up invading random countries that were at best peripheral to the original problem.
-
Encourage a final resolution to the Israeli-Palestinian problem, either through the formation of a fully and effectively independent Palestinian state, or the annexation of the Territories by Israel and the extension to the Palestinians of full Israeli citizenship and representation in the Knesset.
-
Develop alternative, non-fossil-fuel dependent modes of transportation in the U.S. and Europe.
If these things are done, the main points of friction between the West and the Arab world will be eliminated. Some will remain, but OBL will see his base slowly start to shrink.
Expand and modify our intellegence organs…especially the CIA. It needs to be completely snapped out of its cold war entrenchments and redefined. We need to fight this war (and yes, we can call it a war…people are going to die. We could call it a police action though if that makes you feel better) on several fronts:
-
Root cause. As BG said the Israel/Palestinian problem needs to be resolved one way or the other. In addition we need to go after the root cause in many of the nations of the ME…namely the vast gap between the incredibly wealthy and the incredibly poor. Thing the contrast is vast in the US? Go to the ME sometime and take a good look around.
-
Financial. We need to target the terrorists finances, and to do this we need good intellegence and a beefed up cyber team to go after them electronically…and protect ourselves from the same thing coming back on us. Cut off some non-trivial percentage of funds to terrorist organizations and you at least lessen their abilities to strike out. Things like 9/11 and even the bombing in Spain take funds have the missions succeed. Cut the funds and you curtail or reduce terrorists abilities to do the bad things they do.
-
Military. There are terrorist camps and training centers out there in other in the wide world. Identify them and hammer them reguardless of what country they are in. This is what we should have done in Iraq…simply hammered the camps in Norther Iraq…and in Syria, Jordan, Iran, etc. We don’t need to invade and conquere these nations (though we need to put pressure on them to reform their ways…see the first point on root causes).
-
Unified action. The US can’t do all this alone. We need to work together closely with other nations. As has been seen in the last month no nation is immune from having their citizens kidnapped and threatened with death, or having their children taken hostage and murdered. The world needs to present a unified front…and not take any shit from countries who don’t want to play nice. If a country harbors terrorists, if there are terrorist camps withing their boundaries, then such nations should be sanctioned…and such camps should be ruthlessly attacked and eliminated. Opperatives within such nations should be kept under observation, and eliminated if necessary.
Finally, even doing all these things we need to realize that we will NEVER completely eliminate terrorism in the world. It will always be with us in one form or another.
-XT
True, but I don’t see how we Western states can do anything about that without interfering in Arab states’ internal affairs – and we’ve seen how that works out.
-
First of all, make all efforts to win world public opinion, especially if you want terrorism to be fought in other lands.
-
Recognize that there are more effective and less expensive tools than military.
-
Never, never, never, never, never, never, hand the terrorists tangible proof that they were in right all along to fight the power. The damage to the anti-terrorism efforts caused by the activities in Abu Ghirab prison, scarily, has not even begun to manifest.
If we can’t we will ultimately fail then.
-XT
First off I’ll beg to differ that Israel has very much to do with terrorism against the West. But that could be another thread.
Root causes:
-
The encroachment of Western secularism and commercialism into the essential fabric of the Arab world and the consequent erosion or “traditional” Islamist values with militant resentment of the same.
-
With exposure to Western culture a knowledge of what is not there. The expectation of a better life denied. Few educational opportunities and little to do with an education if obtained. Few freedoms. Little voice. A lack of means to engage in a process to influence that which effects you through any traditional means.
Various different powers that be in the Arab world are well invested in keeping the Arab “man in the street” believing that his problems are because of the US, or because of Israel. Religious conservatives sell it because it helps solidify their power against the corrupting influences of secular culture. Political leaders sell it because it distracts the public from realizing that their own leadership is abusing the hell out of them. “It may be me against my brother, but it is first both of us against the infidel.”
The options for root cause #1 are few. Retreat is not only a bad idea but impossible. Instead we need to speed up the process by which the Arab world joins the rest of the world in embracing a shared basis of secular values that respect each others freedoms and religions. But the Islamic conservative is right: western secularism will erode what they see as traditional values.
For issue #2 we have only one effective option. We need to recognize that our long term interest is served differently that our short term one. Short term we are served by supporting freindly regiemes even if they treat their own poorly. Long term this delays the real entry of Arab societies into the modern secular world. (Please note, here I do not mean secular as meaning no religion, but that religion is not the basis of shared values and laws) We must pressure for meaningful reforms even they initially hurt our interests. (We do have influence, but we use it to support the despots more than to influence reform.)
This will be easier to do if we are less beholden to oil. Rapid development of oil sparing technologies is essential. Higher gas taxes and bigger tax credits for purchase of hybrids and other oil use sparing technologies.
Creating the recruiting base for terror in Iraq, rather than going full steam after Osama and company was stupid, but it is done now and we are stuck with the consequences.
Doesn’t matter which part of the globe has secularism, eventually it will erode the structure like it has here.
One suggestion I’ve heard that would eventually produce results is for some international organization to start funding public schools in Islamic countries. Not for teaching propaganda, but just to offer good secular educations.
For the last few decades, governments in most Islamic countries have been too interested in spending their money on military forces and luxuries. When religious organizations offered to run the school system they were happy to turn it over.
Now we’re seeing the results; generations of men who haven’t been taught more than the rudiments of math or science and have limited employment prospects, but have been indoctrinated with a distorted version of history and theology that says all problems are the fault of the Jews and the West and the solution is to blindly follow whatever your mullah tells you.
Little Nemo
I think that instead of funding Islamic schools we should simply fund schools. Forget the religious bit. My daughter goes to an American-type school in Riyadh and the government has passed a law forbidding Muslims to attend without permission from the Ministry of the Interior. Despite the restrictions, any Muslim who can afford it will make the effort to send his children to either this school or a corresponding British curriculum school across town.
My point is that there is a huge demand for quality education in the Middle East and the people here are well aware of the shortcomings of their school system.
Regards
Testy
The way I am reading Little Nemo’s post, that was the suggestion.
I don’t see that you can really describe the US as ‘secular’ - and without the US, you’re using a selective picture of ‘western’ values.
You’re right, it was and I mis-read his post. :smack: In any event, it is an excellent idea. The problem is to get the Islamic Powers-That-Be to allow it. A secular education will erode thier power-base and they are very well aware of this. Conversely, any religious contamination will erode the effectiveness of the school. I’m not sure how to get around this one as there isn’t much room for compromise and the average guy can’t afford to send his kid overseas for school.
Regards
Testy
Well, we need to get the Islamists to stop fighting.
How do we get them to want to stop? We give them something else to do. That would mean jobs and a public life that is worth living. Give the troublemakers legitimate channels to voice their complaints. When they get tired down in school board meetings and all that they are less likely to pick up the gun.
Real ownership of real property is important too. Remember how serious you got when you signed your first mortgage?
Marriage calms young men down too. In Saudi Arabia, guys have to save up about USD20,000 to buy a wife. They do not get married until late in their twenties. Too many remain single.
In short, make them happy and they will not want to loose all they have by making trouble.
IMHO, there are three parts to the WoT- dealing with those who are already terrorists, dealing with those who may become terrorists, and dealing with those aid terrorists.
What works for one group is counterproductive with another.
Those who are currently terrorists are prob’ly implacable.
If we can just keep them from being able to recruit people faster than they die off then eventually, their numbers will become so small as to be in effective.
As far as fundraisers etc. consider that aQ was at one point pulling in $10mil a year in donations. These donors, most likely are not implacable.
Two parts diplomacy and one part force.
To quote Joshua: “The only way to win is not to play.”
We need to stop messing around in the Middle East, it pisses off the Arabs. And i’m not talking about support for Israel, that’s small potatoes. We need to stop invading countries and establishing military bases in the area. Bush41 started the whole mess, and we’re now two skyscrapers short because of it. Hundreds of billions of dollars have been lost due to terrorism in the past three years, we need to stop the hemorrhaging.
The only way to get out of the Middle East is for America to become energy independent. We need to start giving enormous funding to finding efficient renewable sources of energy: biomass, solar, nuclear, whatever it takes. I’d rather spend billions on science and technology than to spend it to go kill the brown man. Becoming energy independent can only make America stronger.
Actually it’s been going on longer than that-we started getting involved in ME politics back in the 1950s.