Student charged for stealing free milk.

[yellowjacketcoder]

@Saint_Cad

Oh yes, grabbing him is very non-aggressive.

I’m glad you agree. That is pretty normal behavior for stopping somebody you want to talk to.

[Machine_Elf]

@puzzlegal

Stealing food worth less than a dollar? You handcuff a kid when you suspect him off that? How about starting by asking the kid if he paid for the milk, or some similar less aggressive interaction.

It started with a hand on the kid’s shoulder. If the kid had stood still and answered the cop’s questions after that, none of this probably would have happened. The handcuffs got applied when the kid refused to cooperate.

[Kimballkid]

@Shodan

How does the free milk program work? Is there just free milk in the refrigerator and everyone helps themselves, or do certain (presumably low-income) students help themselves? Or is there a ticket that they get punched, or a plastic card like a debit card that they present?

I still don’t understand how people thought he was stealing the milk. Is there a sort of check-out line he didn’t go thru?

Regards,
Shodan

When we were on the free/reduced price meal plan, we had a punch card like everyone else so as not to stand out. IIRC, we had to go to the office, just like everyone else, to get the card except we didn’t have to pay or paid less than everyone else.

[bump]

@Shodan

How does the free milk program work? Is there just free milk in the refrigerator and everyone helps themselves, or do certain (presumably low-income) students help themselves? Or is there a ticket that they get punched, or a plastic card like a debit card that they present?

I still don’t understand how people thought he was stealing the milk. Is there a sort of check-out line he didn’t go thru?

Regards,
Shodan

Seems pretty easy to me. Just like Post 28 says, I doubt the cop knows just what kids are on the free lunch program, so to him, it probably looked like this kid went and snatched a carton of milk without paying, even though he forgot his milk.

Now in reality, the best way for this to have gone down would have either been for the kid to have said “Hey- I forgot my milk. Can I get one?” and let the lunch lady or the cop say “Sure” or “We need to punch your card” or whatever. Even if you’re entitled to free milk, you still have to go through the normal procedures to get that milk, otherwise people will think you’re stealing it.

But Turk didn’t, and the cop thought he was stealing it. Turk didn’t help matters by being mouthy and uncooperative either.

Now why they actually cuffed him and charged him with a crime is very perplexing; at worst, I’d think it would call for a little lecture about not being a knucklehead and asking before you just take milk.

[sachertorte]

@yellowjacketcoder

I’m glad you agree. That is pretty normal behavior for stopping somebody you want to talk to.

Well… as was explained to me during jury duty, grabbing someone constitutes assault.

[Me_Billy]

The kid would get ONE free milk per day. Free milk does not mean he can just go up and take milk anytime he pleases, and does not mean any number of cartons of milk each day.

If you get a buy one, get one free deal at a store… Does that mean you can just go up and grab all the free products you want, any time you want?

[Me_Billy]

As for the item costing less than a dollar and it not being any big deal…

Go steal items worth less than a dollar at your local store and see if they think it is a big deal or not! If it were my store, I would prosecute you for shoplifting.

[Two_Many_Cats]

Okay, let’s say the first move the cop made was to grab the kid.
No “Hey you!” or “Put that down!” No nothing, just grab.

What would be so incredibly difficult about saying, “Excuse me please, what is the problem?”

I mean, if an armed robber grabs you, should your first response be to piss off your assailant with trash talk? No, you want to keep the guy calm. Common sense, right?

So, whether the cop is right or wrong, the best thing is to NOT TO MOUTH OFF. How can people, teenagers included, not understand this simple fact?

Okay, kids do stupid things. But people trying to justify what this kid did, and even advising running from the cops is beyond stupid.

[Omega_Glory]

Most people will be on edge if they’re suddenly grabbed. The usual response is not going to be to calmly let someone hold onto you while you politely ask what’s going on.

[Peremensoe]

@Two_Many_Cats

Okay, let’s say the first move the cop made was to grab the kid.
No “Hey you!” or “Put that down!” No nothing, just grab.

What would be so incredibly difficult about saying, “Excuse me please, what is the problem?”

I mean, if an armed robber grabs you, should your first response be to piss off your assailant with trash talk? No, you want to keep the guy calm. Common sense, right?

So you’re comparing the police officers, detailed to public schools, with armed robbers? You suggest we need to be similarly careful around either sort of dangerous hothead?

@Two_Many_Cats

So, whether the cop is right or wrong, the best thing is to NOT TO MOUTH OFF. How can people, teenagers included, not understand this simple fact?

Okay, kids do stupid things. But people trying to justify what this kid did, and even advising running from the cops is beyond stupid.

The police officer is, ostensibly, the adult and the professional in this situation. The justifiability of his actions is the meaningful issue here.

[Chihuahua]

@Two_Many_Cats

So, whether the cop is right or wrong, the best thing is to NOT TO MOUTH OFF. How can people, teenagers included, not understand this simple fact?

Okay, kids do stupid things. But people trying to justify what this kid did, and even advising running from the cops is beyond stupid.

Because being assaulted by an armed asshole for no reason can be expected to provoke an emotional response from anybody. If someone grabbed me, my first instinct would be to try to escape… Especially if I knew they were wrong to do it. It is easy to judge them from where we sit, at our computers, but the reality of the situation is quite different.

Cops know this, and they actively try to provoke hostility in their victims so that they have an excuse to make an arrest completely independent of whether the original stop was actually justified. Some states even have laws on the books like “Resisting an Officer Without Violence” which are defined so broadly that any disagreement or displeasure becomes an arrestable offense.

This is also why we have things like the 21 foot rule and cops shooting dogs for no reason. The emphasis on officer safety is so biased that they have a blank check to attack whoever they want, and then arrest anyone who resists.

[Two_Many_Cats]

@Peremensoe

So you’re comparing the police officers, detailed to public schools, with armed robbers? You suggest we need to be similarly careful around either sort of dangerous hothead?

That was my main point, yes, because a good number of posters here are assuming this cop is a dangerous hothead. And whether this cop is or not, remaining calm and polite would work either way.

[Peremensoe]

@Two_Many_Cats

That was my main point, yes, because a good number of posters here are assuming this cop is a dangerous hothead. And whether this cop is or not, remaining calm and polite would work either way.

All right. That’s good personal advice. Yes, advise your kids on how to handle police on that basis.

But as a public, political matter, the burden of controlling oneself and behaving appropriately falls on the adults, and particularly the public-employee professionals.

Especially, for godsake, in a school.

@IvoryTowerDenizen

Actually many schools have officers on site not to patrol the kids but to build positive relationships in an otherwise adversarial situation. I can’t comment on this cop, school, or situation specifically, but many, many schools are using LEO in schools for positive reasons.

[Saint_Cad]

@yellowjacketcoder

I’m glad you agree. That is pretty normal behavior for stopping somebody you want to talk to.

Nope. Calling their name is.

[TriPolar]

@IvoryTowerDenizen

Actually many schools have officers on site not to patrol the kids but to build positive relationships in an otherwise adversarial situation. I can’t comment on this cop, school, or situation specifically, but many, many schools are using LEO in schools for positive reasons.

The road to Hell is paved with positive reasons. This is thefailed D.A.R.E. strategy. We need kids to have no relationship with LEO.

[Machine_Elf]

@Peremensoe

So you’re comparing the police officers, detailed to public schools, with armed robbers? You suggest we need to be similarly careful around either sort of dangerous hothead?

As a matter of fact, That’s pretty much the same basic advice given here by a former border patrol agent:

…So get your head in the right place, and remember who you are dealing with.

His training dictates that HE control the encounter, not you. To assure that he can do so he has been given various tools, among them blunt objects, nasty chemicals, and firearms. He has been trained to use them and given permission to do so if, in his judgment, it becomes necessary. While there may be arguing after the fact of using them about whether or not he should have, it remains that you may be in the hospital or jail or morgue while that argument goes on.

He may also be nervous or even frightened about the encounter. Who knows? It might be his very first day of working alone and you may fit the description of a guy who just raped the mayor’s daughter and shot another officer during the getaway. The point is, don’t do anything that will contribute to his case of nerves, which all smart cops have to one degree or another whenever they are approaching someone they don’t know.

So, here we have an armed individual on a mission, and that mission is little ol’ you. He has a gun, some degree of permission to use it, he may not be very bright to start with, and may have just discovered his wife in bed with the milkman before he came on shift. Be nice.

“Control the encounter” is the first tenet of a cop’s training because his life often depends on it. A contact who is fidgety, keeps putting his hands in his pockets, or vehemently insists on having some distance between him and the officer is something to be concerned about. It’s not that the cop is a hothead, it’s that he’s concerned about his own safety; if he’s not in control of the encounter, then his safety is at risk.

[Chronos]

If it legitimately looked like the kid was stealing the milk, then it was 100% appropriate for the officer to begin the arrest process. In fact, it would be grossly inappropriate for him to fail to do so. Far better for the kid to learn not to steal now, over a petty matter, than for it to happen when he’s shoplifting hundreds of dollars worth of merchandise from a store.

Note that I said “begin the arrest process”. This process could have been cut short, if the kid had not actually stolen the milk and had reacted reasonably. Even by the accounts we have, he did not.

[Banquet_Bear]

@Machine_Elf

As a matter of fact, That’s pretty much the same basic advice given here by a former border patrol agent:

“Control the encounter” is the first tenet of a cop’s training because his life often depends on it. A contact who is fidgety, keeps putting his hands in his pockets, or vehemently insists on having some distance between him and the officer is something to be concerned about. It’s not that the cop is a hothead, it’s that he’s concerned about his own safety; if he’s not in control of the encounter, then his safety is at risk.

…if “control the encounter” is the first tenet of a cops training: how come when I google for “control the encounter” it comes up with no cites at all for the police? (in the first five or six pages I checked anyway.)

Is the only way to “control an encounter” with a high school kid to grab them and accuse them of theft? There aren’t alternative ways of doing it? Don’t you think grabbing the kid and provoking the kid is a poor way to “control an encounter?”

[septimus]

@Smapti

Do you think children should be trained to mouth off to police?

You’re the one who likes to defend police. Why don’t you answer my question first?

[IvoryTowerDenizen]

@TriPolar

The road to Hell is paved with positive reasons. This is thefailed D.A.R.E. strategy. We need kids to have no relationship with LEO.

I utterly disagree and I am no LEO fan girl or apologist. Just because some things that were implemented with positive reason failed, doesn’t mean other things aren’t worth doing.

As always, it is how these plans are implemented and the nature of people involved that matter. And once again, I have no idea, in this specific case, what the intent or purpose was to having LEO in the schools.