Myself and a buddy recently renewed our passports here in Bangkok. Discussing passport renewals one evening – such be common topics of conversation in expat communities, along with other matters such as diarrhea rates – another friend mentioned he had five months left on his American passport and wanted to renew it and get his visa transferred before he went back to the US for a visit.
But here’s the thing. He defaulted on something like $30,000 worth of student loans five years ago. Such matters are easy to ignore while over here, but now he’s worried that a) he’ll be refused a new passport when he applies at the embassy; and b) if he gets the passport, they’ll arrest him upon arrival in the US. I told him I was pretty sure he wouldn’t get arrested upon arrival. Sued maybe, but not arrested. Other than that, I hadn’t a clue what to tell him.
Does anyone have any words of wisdom I can pass on? He’s starting to be very worried about this.
Hmmm. Okay, I guess I’ll tell him he’s just screwed.
Seriously, I don’t think they’ll march him off to an interrogation room once he arrives in the US. But I feel he may have some problems when he applies for a new passport. I don’t want to say anything if I don’t know. He’ll have to apply for one now anyway if he wants to come back, as they must be valid for at least six months to enter Thailand. Just about any country has that rule, I think. So I guess he’ll find out.
Assuming he is not planning on staying in the US, I doubt anything will happen. I also doubt he will have problems with his passport, etc. I am even more confident there would be few repercussions if they were private loans. You cannot be criminally punished for not paying your debts. The only legal trouble would be if the lender decided he took out the loans with the intent to defraud them. They is hard to prove, expensive, and likely not gonna happen for “only” 30k. What he will likely find is the amount (which cannot be discharged via bankruptcy) is much larger, that his credit is ruined, that they may have placed a lien on anything he happens to own in the US, and/or confiscated his tax refunds (if he has any).
Thanks. As for to whom, I don’t know. He just said he defaulted on his loans. I guess wherever student loans come from. But $30,000 sounds like a lot to me even though I know that could be just chump change in this day and age of educational costs.
I have heard of the government taking some forms of action such as garnishing some wages and withholding tax refunds and even Social Security benefits but have never really paid much attention to it. They can’t very well garnish his wages over here, and I seriously doubt this guy makes enough to have to pay US taxes either. His sticking point is renewing his passport. If they won’t do that for him, then he’s screwed. But I’ll pass the info along and see what happens when he tries to renew. Should be soon, within a couple of months.
I am pretty sure that it has been credibly cited here before that US Passports can indeed be denied to people who have defaulted on their student loans…
(I may be confusing student loans with overdue child support, but I am almost certain that someone pulled up the regs from the State Department website and it said overdue student loans can be grounds for denial of a passport)
Ha! I did a Search, and the only cite I can find is me [asking this question](I don’t want to say anything if I don’t know) in another thread two years ago. No one answered, and I forgot all about it. I do recall hearing that now that I think of it.
So what happens if you are in Whatsistan and the embassy denies you a passport renewal?
I assume you’re fine as long as you don’t have to go anywhere… But nowadays you need a passport just to get on a plane, unless the host country deports you.
Do you need a passport to do things inside Thailand? ( like checking into hotels, board airlines? I assume if the guy is living there he has a drivers license or similar ID?)
The embassy can issue a temporary travel document, which is good for one one-way trip home.
As for passports in country, they’re essential for opening bank accounts and the like. When making withdrawals and checking into hotels, they’re commonly asked for, but that’s just because no one expects a farang (Westerner) to have a Thai driver’s license. I do, and it usually does the trick. Still have to show the passport – and a work permit – to open a bank account.
I also carry a photocopy of my passport in case the police stop me and want to see it. They never have, but one hears stories. No one is clear on the law either. It is definitely the law that Thais must carry ID at all times, but whether foreigners are also required to is a matter of contention. From what I can tell, there is no law that says foreigners have to carry ID. But many if not most police believe it is the law, and they’re not going to admit some stinking foreigner knows the law better than they do. Some cops, I’ve heard, won’t even accept a photocopy; they want to see the real thing. It’s not just stories, I know people who have been stopped and hassled. Never happened to me though.
I guess the other question is, what is the law regaring bankruptcy internationally? Obviously, if News of the World, say, were to go bankrupt in Britain, they would not want to have a supplier in Canada chase them in Canadian courts for newsprint paper bills owing, or the AP to sue them in American courts for their fees, after they’ve reorganized and gotten back on their feet. Presumably the court recognizes the bankruptcy in another jurisdiction?
Maybe your buddy can declare bankruptcy in Thailand if he lives there, I presume the retroactive, not part of the contract, “can’t erase student loans” rule would not apply in Thailand? Of course, I don’t suppose the US courts would let that go, but do they have a choice? This sort of stuff must be established law by now.
I don’t think this is correct. Since the rules have changed and the big banks have pulled out or are pulling out of the student loan business, the federal government is the largest provider of student loans. Even when the banks were giving the loans, they were backed by the federal government and had to follow the federal rules (except private student loans that were issued by the bank).
Trust me, you don’t want to get involved with the Thai court system for any reason if it can be avoided, no matter what. This ain’t America. And my friend is hardly that ambitious anyway and besidees, I doubt he has any valid reason to declare bankruptcy. I don’t know the exact reason behind his defaulting, but I suspect it was possibly simply due to a lack of interest in keeping up with it once he was over here. Like me, he has very few ties left to the US. Anyway, he needs to know this in the next month or two, so a drawn-out court case – and they’re all drawn out here – would be of no use,
I did ask him last night about where the loans came from, and he said they were government loans.
In general, corporations that operate internationally have a subsidiary corporation incorporated in each major country. And each of those operate under the laws (including the bankruptcy laws) of that country.
Now presumably, if the parent corporation headquartered in Britain goes bankrupt, the Canadian subsidiary is also in financial trouble, and it too probably goes bankrupt – but under the Canadian courts.
Well, I guess his options are limited. Open any bank accounts ASAP.
Can you get Thai citizenship, to get a legit passport? Of course, outside of the local area and commuting to the USA I imagine it’s not too useful, as say visiting Europe for example would mean endless hours days weeks for visas.
From what I read you don’t nowadays lose American citizenship by taking out a foreign one…
Or is Thai citizenship, like Thai bankruptcy more trouble than it’s worth?
Getting citizenship for any country is not going to be a snap, and it is especially tortuous for Thailand. It is a years-long process, and if you don’t speak and write fluent Thai (he does not) or even have children by a Thai wife (he does not), you can pretty much forget it. You wouldn’t even qualify for permanent residency, itself a years-long process in that you must show three years’ continuous employement in the same company (and he works illegally doing Internet stuff), let alone citizenship.
(And while you don’t automatically lose your American citizenship, that’s only from the US perspective. Thai law forbids dual citizenships and requires new citizens to give up their former nationality.)
No, I’m not necessarily asking what he should do, especially not if it involves time-consuming and near-impossible actions. I’m just asking what he can expect at the embassy or on arrival in the US.
The question is whether the local US embassy is going to be dicks about it, and notify the local Thai authorities the guy was denied a passport (if he applies).
If it is true that he will not get a renewal, then I assume someday in his future he will be getting a one-way trip back to the USA, either under his own steam or with persuasion.
I assume one of the other questions he must ask himself is whether he wants to come back someday. I assume the Thais, like the USA, don’t allow foreigners to easily return once they were ordered deported… in which case leaving under his own steam is a good idea.
Once back in the USA, I guess he’ll be scrimping to put together $30,000 plus interest.
But he would not have been deported. This would be considered solely a matter between my friend and his country. He’d have to leave, yes, but it’s not quite “deported” per se. He would be considered the same as anyone else whose passport expires and must leave, but Thailand would have absolutely no problem with him coming back on a valid passport. Deportation occurs when you run afoul of Thai law, such as by overstaying your visa or engaging in criminal activity. I doubt the US government would bother to inform the Thai authorities that his passport would not be renewed. If he did stay, he would be discovered the first time he encountered officialdom in any form; then he would be deported. However, I can assure you my friend does not have the wherewithal to stay here without a valid passport, and he would indeed leave on his own accord before his present passport expired. I’m not quite sure how familiar you are with international matters.
Anyway, let’s leave the realm of fantasy. Does anyone have a good idea of what he can actually expect when he shows up at the embassy? We’ll find out soon anyway, but I thought I would ask. So far, there’s no hard information, and I’m guessing he may just slip through the cracks. He should, of course, pay his loans, but believe me, one encounters much worse than loan defaulters over here.
