You really didn’t understand that? Wow. I guess it has a lot to do with our respective console RPG playing histories, but I thought it was more than obvious, it was intuitive. I’m not trying to insult you, really; like I said, I consider myself more than a grizzled veteran of these kinds of games, especially the FF series.
Anyway, I should point out that in the case of FFX-2, there is a major decision early in the game that essentially splits the game into two paths, in a sense. Each path has some different cutscenes and missions, as well as items you can’t get in the other path. FURTHER, because of the aforementioned differences, each path has percentage points you can’t get in the other. Thus, it’s possible to get 100% on the second play-through, even if you DON’T do every little detail, just by playing through the game naturally. I’d say that all adds up to a great reason for the second time around…
I’m clearly not making this clear. You’re complaining about a problem that doesn’t exist with the game it’s being made about.
You CAN’T accidentally do things in the wrong order. The plot doesn’t progress without warning - in fact the missions you need to complete to advance the plot are marked out clearly (the ‘hot spots’ I mentioned earlier), and until the plot progresses you can do the rest of the chapter in any order you wish. And, yes, there is a good reason to cut off each chapter’s parts in the quests that get cut off. People change in their relation to eachother, locations get cut off, and the story generally progresses - and several of them involve doing the same thing in every chapter . It’d be a very boring game if nothing could change lest it cut off a sidequest, and haven’t people been complaining about sidequests that are completely detatched from the rest of the game?
This is even more nonsensical. The Holy guardians of whateveritis hand out mucho-stash if you wear topazes?
Which doesn’t make any sense to someone not familiar with console-itis.
Uhh… no. I’m a FF veteran and I know its silly and stupid. Especially if people haven’t played any FF’s before it will make no sense. These quests are often quite hidden and have no clues. Unless you are nuerotically searching them out (like me ) you simply are going to missing out and not realize why the game isn’t giving you more.
I think the BG II example is superior here: there are new things that open up in each chapter, but you can still do the old quests if you didn’t get around to finishing it.
[QUOTE=shijinn]
[ul]
[li] i’m still waiting for the ‘sequel’ to Darklands… [/ul][/li][/QUOTE]
Hey! I thought that i was the only one that remembered the greatness that was Darklands. To date, it is still my favorite pc-based rpg, and I still trot it out to play, even with the bugs, crappy graphics, and just weird plot points.
For open ended play, it was incredible, and the way the story arced into a final showdown with the apolypse was very cool. I’m a history buff, too, so the idea of tromping through 15th century Germany appeals to me.
Damn…itches to once again lay the smackdown on satanic templars with his holy mallet of St. Swithbert
One set of games that I liked for their replay value was Might and Magic 7 and 8. In MM7, you did have to make some “moral” decision within the game, and it affected the gameplay – the ability advancement, the quests you could get, which cities would be friendly toward you or attack you, and the ending. In MM8, it was a little more complex – you decided on alliances between different people – but again, it affected the gameplay. To me, that’s true replay value; not just repeating the game and trying to get every “point” this time.
Another thing to point out about the FF series, as much as I do like them, is that a lot of the things you would have to do to get everything are not clued within the game. If you don’t have a hint from the net, or the strategy guide, or something, it just may not be possible (save by accident) to get everything. That’s what I object to; if there was so much as a single NPC in the game hinting about each thing you could get, I would no longer object.
O.K. Let me tell you what happened. I head for Mushroom Rock Road, Yaibal asks me to clear the road of fiends, he tells Clasko to “led the way”, it appears to me that Clasko enters Mushroom Rock Road. O. K. I head into Mushroom Rock Road, defeat the fiends, get the reward, then save over my old save. (Yah I know I shouldn’t have) Well turns out I should have spoken to Clasko before defeating the fiends. Apparently Clasko sneaks back out of Mushroom Rock Road and hides over in the corner of the previous area. But how am I supposed to know this? It looks to me like he enters MRR. I just don’t think this is fair. Do I start the game over again? I’ve just spent 8 hours getting this far. Thanks a lot Square/Enix for wasting my time!
Something that I see hasn’t been posted or mentioned here is the Player’s Bill of Rights, part of Graham Nelson’s ‘The Craft of Adventure’ (note-- ftp:// link)
This is written with an intended audience of interactive fiction players and authors, but many of the concepts can be applied to any game. I’ll trim out the Bill of Rights part and encourage everyone to read his comments on each:[ul][]1. Not to be killed without warning[]2. Not to be given horribly unclear hints[]3. To be able to win without experience of past lives[]4. To be able to win without knowledge of future events[]5. Not to have the game closed off without warning[]6. Not to need to do unlikely things[]7. Not to need to do boring things for the sake of it[]8. Not to have to type exactly the right verb[]9. To be allowed reasonable synonyms[]10. To have a decent parser[]11. To have reasonable freedom of action[]12. Not to depend much on luck[]13. To be able to understand a problem once it is solved[]14. Not to be given too many red herrings[]15. To have a good reason why something is impossible[]16. Not to need to be American17. To know how the game is getting on[/ul]I wager that all of us can think of games that have violated some of these ‘player’s rights’.
To change the subject from RPGs, another silly concept is the restraint and patience of the bad guys. You beat about a thousand cannon-fodders one at a time, then go up against one of the Big Boss’s sons/brothers/chief henchmen. Then, you go up against another thousand single-file cannon fodder, and another son/brother/henchman. And so on for eight iterations, before finally facing the Big Boss. Now, I can understand starting with the sparse weak monsters. Were I the Big Boss, I wouldn’t want to waste my time with every Tom, Dick, and Harry with a sword or a fire flower. But after one of those heroes manages to get through a thousand koopas and a s/b/h, I’m going to get down off of my throne and come directly for him personally, along with an army of all the cannon fodder I can muster shoulder to shoulder and all remaining s/b/hs, before that hero has a chance to build up any more power.
Of course, I do realize that this restraint is necessary to make the game playable, but it’s still illogical.
very well, how would you label Final Fantasy then, if not console rpg?
good point, i missed that. still, this only applies to games that caters to the thief-type classes and evil characters. let’s look at baldur’s gate for example; IIRC*, while there are some areas where the npcs will turn hostile if you loot their stuff or barge into their homes, most of the time you are ignored and are given free reign over the items in the house (provided you are able to open locked chests etc of course). there are no penalties for doing this. (the town police seems concerned with killing only, general burglary is beneath them to investigate.)
one might say that this is the moral aspect of the game; law-abiding characters will not even think of taking anything, regardless of whether the act might be noticed by others. I say that this is a game that might be played by children who think wrestling are genuine, and such common real world concepts like stealing should be treated seriously.
i may recall wrongly. i remember there being police who will portal in the moment an alarm is sounded, but i am quite sure you are mostly free to loot in BG2.
i must have mostly missed them because i (mostly) avoid stealing or i haven’t played them. might you list a few games where this is treated as you’ve described throughout the game?
true, though as i see it game companies seem to think character stats=rpg.
as for the final fantasy easter eggs, i don’t personally like them, but i can understand how they might want them to be special, and can only be accessed if you have ‘insider’ tips and such. i treat them as extras that i need not hunt after if i missed them.
i didn’t play fallout or it’s sequel… anyone know if it is worth getting now and does it work on an XP?
right! it still works on today’s pc? though i do not think i’ll try, better to have fond memories…
replay value: don’t diablo 2 score high on this?
to continue changing the subject from rpgs, are strafing in FPSs. * ♪ Can’t Touch This! ♪*
This is called metagaming - that is, you the player know that the character is supposed to do X rather than Y, only because you know the conventions of the genre and how things are “supposed” to work. It can also describe things like an NPC telling you to “Press the X button to open chests in dungeons and get the treasure!” Too much metagaming stuff knocks your mind out of the game world and reminds you that’s it’s all artificial, which does not make for a great game. It may still be fun, but probably not a classic.
Example: Let’s say your party explores an island, then has to take a ship to the next island and they can’t come back ever. Now let’s say you arrive at a big port city with ships to other locations, but no ship goes back to that first island. A lot of games will give some lame excuse like, “This ship is under repairs,” or “The captain doesn’t like that island, it’s dumb,” or there isn’t even an option to go back to that island. Realistically your party could get a bunch of gold together and pay someone to go to the island if you really wanted to, but in this hypothetical game you just can’t. (Pick any random console RPG, you’ll probably find something like this.)
Now look at Knights of the Old Republic:
You (the character) start on a ship that’s under attack by the Sith, and you have to get off before it’s destroyed. Clearly, there is a pressing reason to escape and you can’t go back. Then you land on the planet Taris below to look for the Jedi Bastila and find a way to escape. You know that there is a huge Sith fleet above and an occupying force on the surface, and they are looking for Bastila and anyone trying to help her. You know that you can’t come back once you have her because she has more important things to worry about, and it would be risky, and it’s a backwater planet of no importance to the galaxy as a whole. As you escape, you know that the Sith are bombarding the whole planet to try to kill you and Bastila, and just because they are bastards. Afterwards you can’t go back because there is nothing to go back to, just a bunch of slag. At no point during this does it feel artificially forced, it all makes sense within the game world.
Heck, I dunno. Considering the number and length of cutscenes in FFX, “interactive movie” springs to mind.
See, I think that’s a good example of how it should be handled. If someone sees you stealing, they’ll react, but if no one sees you stealing, you can get away with it. Wether your character steals or not becomes an ethical choice: do you not take anything that doesn’t belong to you, even if you could get away with it, do you steal only when you can get away with it, or do you take whatever you want and cut down anyone who objects? That’s the essence of roleplaying.
It would be cool if someone came out with a game where the town guard actually investigated robberies and such, but let’s face it: if the town guard ever did its job, there wouldn’t be any need for adventurers, would there?
I find the idea that Baldur’s Gate will cause children to start stealing stuff to be highly suspect.
Let’s see… I believe both Fallout games had consequences for getting caught stealing. Morrowind did, too. In the Ultima VII games, your party members will desert you if you start ransacking innocent people’s homes (although they give you plenty of warnings before leaving). Baldur’s Gate has already been discussed. I believe Deus Ex had repurcussions for getting caught stealing, but I can’t remember for sure. I usually like to play heroic characters, so I usually don’t bother to try stealing unless the game makes it abundantly clear that no one cares of you take their stuff, such as FFX and X-2. I’m sure there are more that I just can’t think of.
Yes and yes. These games definitely hold up, and have great replay value because there are always multiple ways to achieve any objective. You should be able to get both games as a bundle for pretty cheap. There’s also Fallout Tactics, which was a pretty good squad based tactical combat game set in the Fallout universe. It got very mixed reviews, but I liked it a lot.
An interesting twist on ‘morality’ handled by Fallout 2 was the Perk system. Normally a Perk is something special you get to choose every few levels that gives you a bonus. Some additions to the Perk list appear when you perform certain tasks, and they’re not all pleasant. Childkiller (not available in the European version I hear, since the kids were all removed), Porn Star, and Graverobber spring to mind, and they have effects on your reputation and Charisma.
IIRC, those weren’t perks, they were Reputation titles. Perks were universally beneficial, and could affect any part of the game. Reputation was based on your actions, only affected character interactions, and could be good or bad, depending on how you’d behaved in the game up to that point.
On the subject of theft anyone remember that part in Dragon Warrior where you could see a woman behind a door with like three chests.
Keys in the begining were VERY expensive so opening said door would cost you. You get in and the woman says something like “A true hero wouldn’t take from a person’s house”
Opening the chests were about 3GP a piece where the key was something like 60 (if not more) I always thought that was pretty funny you wasted a ton of cash only to be made to feel like a jerk and not make it worth even the cost of a key.
Most shopkeepers had a shotgun or better, and would not hesitate to blow your ass away. A few had advanced weaponry, like a laser pistol, to make even shorter work of you. Even your average farmer would be as likely to come after you with a crowbar as to yell at you to get out. It’s like the Wild West, but with mutants and deathclaws and ghouls, oh my!
Diablo 2 and the Expansion Pack, I would think, based on my incredibly biased experience playing it for several thousands of hours over the past … coming up on two years since D2XP was released, isn’t it?
Diablo is an RPG in the sense that you’re playing a character, but talk to most of the hardcore (as opposed to HC, where if your character dies, that’s it) D2 players and you’ll get a projected stat/build guide, not anything about their character’s personality, how they came to acquire X or Y item, etc. It’s basically become a cross between paper dolls and Duke Nukem, with some differences obviously (eg, Duke Nuken ain’t a chick).
actually, i do agree with this, especially when the combat has cutscenes too.
that’s just it. IIRC most npcs just ignore you when your team ransack their house.
i didn’t say that. i simply said it would be a bad idea to treat such common concepts like these lightly. (how many children believe a wack to the back of the head renders people unconcious?)
thanks for the suggestions. think i’ll try fallout 2 and maybe tactics if installation is straightforward.
another one on fps games: want to get to the top of that building real quick? jump up as high as you can and shoot an rpg at the ground.
Well, the guys in FPSs are obviously quite strong. How many people do you know that can take 50 bullets and walk around like nothing’s happened? It’s the 51st bullet, though, that is the straw that breaks the camel’s back, killing your character instantly.
) you simply are going to missing out and not realize why the game isn’t giving you more.