And you do realize that the skills taught to you in debate class may determine the winner on Crossfire, but do not determine reality.
You (or others) are making claims contradictory everything known to science. If we can’t agree to use the scientific method as a means of validiting an idea then we just will have to agree to disagree (though I’ll side with jab1 in considering you a moron).
However, if you do agree that the scientific method is a very good way (and probably the best way) to determine the validity of a claim then you are going to have to understand that saying “this is my idea, it’s true until proven otherwise” is not the way it works.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Your claim (or others) is that there is something fundamentally wrong with our understanding of the universe. It is now up to you to provide evidence of events and phenomena that can not be explained by that science.
As for seawitch and dogsbody who have pretty much defined “magic” so generically as to be meaningless. I have no problem accepting the power of the mind to control ones mood (which is essentially what was described) but it is when you start saying that the power of YOUR mind controls MY mood that I have problems. I have been to many “ceremonies” and “castings” and “seances” and whatnot and have seen nothing remotely “magical”.
I have no problem with you believing what you want to believe, but yes, if you can’t intelligently and rigorously (without relying on the imperceptable and immeasurable) justify what you believe, then I am going to be boggled by the intellectual lapse being shown by an otherwise intelligent person.
And since attacking Wicca and voodoo and other, more recent faiths has prompted cries of “You’d never say that about Judaism or Christianity” just let me say that I do include Judaism and Christianity and Hinduism and Matriarchal spiritual feminism and New Age ecology and crystal worship and Ed Dames in this sentiment.
You make a claim, you prove it. If you make a claim you can’t prove or at least minimally justify, stop telling people about it until you can.
No, You might not be directly hurting anybody. But shit travels downhill. Imagine, for instance, A naieve and very Ill person comming to this board. That person has had all sort of stories of Alternative Medicine, UFO’s, magic, occult, ect shoved into his brain from the media, and has not yet made up his mind. He hears of an Indian shaman who can cure his Illness down in new mexico, but is not sure he is legit. So he logs on and checks the straight dope message board, which by all accounts is here to fight IGNORANCE, and promote truth and rationalization. Well, lets look at the Ask the Neo pagan thread, oh, they say magic is real, they are smart and informed people. (he says to himself) So he goes down to mexico, and gets “cured” unfortuantly it does not cure him because it is FULL OF SHIT, and your OPINION an PERSONAL beliefs have had a serious detrimental effect on somebody. That impressionable kid died on his trip back due to lack of proper treatment.
Now I realize that this story is probably unlikely, and exxagerated, but these things can happen. So in all truth, I think it is the LOONS on this board that should leave, so as to not hurt other people, rather than JAB1, no matter how callous and cruel he may be, that leaves. (at least he promotes the spread of truth, not conjecture or fantasy)
If you wanted to get into a debate on whether magic was real or not, thats different than stating magic as real, but stating one rule of the Thread as to not argue about it.
I think jab should have not attacked your belief, but you spreading your fith on THIS particular board, instead of the forums at Imaloon.com. which, im sure amounts to the same thing.
You can believe this if you like, but I challenge you to prove you are not an alien from outer space using technology so sophisticated that nothing we have can detect it, and that you aren’t going to someday devour the earth with your terrible mandibles.
Those who make outrageous claims (I can do magic!) must prove it.
Jab is not the government. The first amendment means he has the right in this country to say what he likes. The freedom of religion means that the government is not allowed to tell you what you can believe.
The thing is, if you want to say you believe in magic, then you have to be willing to deal with what people think magic is. “I believe in magic.” “That’s stupid, you can’t use rituals to give yourself superhuman power.” “Well, when I say magic, I mean teh ability to mow my lawn, you intolerant prick, and I can obviously mow my lawn.” If you want to redefine terms, fine! Have it. This is a descriptivist language.
But if you define a word so that it no longer means what most people think it does, and you get made at someone for attacking the original definition, you are a jackass.
I think it’s pretty clear here that jab1 isn’t looking to convince anyone, just to attack anyone who believes differently than he does. Jab, as much as you’re frothing at the mouth here, you should at least admit (to yourself, in private, at night, with the blanket over your head) that science is your religion. And I’m starting to smell a little fanaticism here.
Say what you will. You obviously have no intention of civilized discussion or logical argument. I, for one, don’t need to hear the ranting.
You mean the government can come here and shut this place down simply because they don’t like our speech? It certainly is applicable even if the moderators/owners reserve the right to limit speech.
First, let me say that this is NOT a criticism of wicca at all. But, this story makes me think of manipulative people praying on those who are vulnerable (perhaps spiritually vulnerable) as in some cult behavior. You go to your teacher, who convinces you (or perhaps you believed already) that “magic”, whatever you define that as (apparently telekenisis is one aspect of it), is a reality. Then, he puts you through a small ordeal which makes you feel stupid, and then gives you some new found “wisdom” by telling you what you already knew, that it’s a hell of a lot easier to move a rock with your hands than with your mind. Well, that’s all well and good, but if this is supposed to explain anything to someone who doesn’t believe in telekenisis, then it has failed as a parable, and the fact that you see this as a sort of proof or explination calls into question your line of reasoning.
And I would like to second a question that other people have asked already. What do we mean when we are talking about magic? If we are saying that magic is just the “essence” of reality, and thus everything is infused with magic by definition, then I don’t think that’s something I can argue with (calling reality by a different name, magic, does not mean that it is any different than what it is). If, however, we are talking about magic in the sense of it being “possible to move a stone, throw fireballs, or levitate without help,” then there is a burden of proof. When and where can anyone witness these acts of magic? And the claim that one must have faith to witness is just a rediculous thing to tell someone. That basically means, “I won’t show you until I can convince you that whatever I do and say is truthful.” Well, then you might as well tell me that we’ve all got to drink arsenic-laced kool-aid!
Hastur - the arguments or going to be you can’t prove a negative, and I will agree with this. You can’t. However, my problem with a lot of people who put follow science so blindly is that they act that if science can’t prove it, then it isn’t true.
Years ago, humans didn’t have the tools to prove the speed of sound (difficult to measure speed without something to accurately keep time), they didn’t have the knowledge or the tools to find that matter is composed of molecules, which are in turn, composed of atoms.
Now, many people follow science which has since proved so much, and believe that if science can’t prove it, it isn’t true. This is what bothers me. The closed-mindedness of it all. It’s just as bad as the Fundamentalists who close their eyes to scientific evidence and claim the Earth is only 6000 years old.
Just becasue science can’t prove something now doesn’t mean a break through won’t prove it in 25 years. And when your world view needs to change, will you be open-minded enough to accept it?
Fine, then let’s have no more discussion of any religion. After all, can you prove that Jesus walked on water, Moses parted the Red Sea, or that Jesus was the son of God?
Oh, wait… those are all considered accepted things by a large mass of humanity, so they MUST be true. So, we don’t deserve the same respect? PUH-leese.
Proof of magic! He predicted the future! Didja use a crystal ball? Tea leaves? Read a goat’s entrails? Astrology?
Here’s what you wrote in that other thread: “From anthropology, I’ve learned that every culture practices or has belief in some form of magic.” If I mis-interpreted that statement, I’ll retract what I said.
ONLY if it’s a book telling me what those beliefs are and why people believe them. If it attempts to convert me to the Ignorant Side, forget it.
I liked you too, Freyr and I knew I’d alienate those I liked as well as those I didn’t. But you can’t make an omelette without breaking some eggs.
Ooooh, I’m shakin’.
BTW, dogsbody says that if you wish someone harm, it will come back to you three-fold. I guess you don’t believe that?
Ok first off let me begin by saying that just because you are a man of science, does not mean you can not be a man of faith. The Anthropic Principle on the formation of the universe has put physicists on the defensive ( The Basics of this principle )when it comes to scientifically explaining the creation of the universe. So therefore science has not disproved anything. Everything is still in the air. Do your research. So my belief in a exterior presence is backed strongly by physics. If Stephen Hawking has not been able to come up with a reasonable explanation to counter the Anthropic Principle, I seriously doubt you posses the knowledge to make such a claim to be an atheist with out having a lot of faith.
all of that is beside the point. You can not demean another’s beliefs. In doing so you show only your ignorance and intolerance. There are many atheists on this board, and the intelligent ones will never bash someone else’s beliefs.
I think I would. After all, if I could give Christian theology a chance and realize that it is the followers who pollute the message, rather than the core concept being flawed, I think I could embrace a view that was well supported.
Yeah, move along, Seawitch has spoken, we must listen.
I don’t think jab is trying to convince anyone, if that were the case, I think he would be over in Great debates no the Pit. So yes, I think he is attacking those that believe in different things(loony things). You know, flaming you… the PIT…Shit people, does it have to be spelled out.
It’s not close-minded not to believe something that has no evidence. I’ll start believing that you can levitate when it’s proved by science.
Yeah, you know how every discussion at the SDMB begins with the assumption that the Bible is true.
And all you pagans whining about taking your lumps-- Yeah, it fucking hurts when someone hits at the weak points of your religion. I have things I believe in, and when I come here sometimes, I see people hit on the same damn things I wonder about in my own beliefs.
Every belief system has weak points. We all know that, unless we’re idiots. But we deal with it, and if we’re just the slightest bit mature we don’t throw hissy fits because those points look stupid to other people.
And science is not a religion; it is a way of testing reality to try a find a systematic way to describe it. It doesn’t make any statements about the meaning of life, or the purpose of humanity, or any fucking philosphical points. It just describes what can be observed, and tries to guess what cannot using rules deduced from what can. Science, properly applied, is inherently open minded. It is not a belief system.
And what Freyr said is true. The Aztec’s believed in magick, as did the Greeks, Romans, and Egyptians. If you look at the cultures of Mesopotamia and Sumeria, they also believed in magick. He said they believed and practiced, he didn’t say it had any effect.
To convert, you need someone with an open mind who wants to learn. You seem to have no mind and NO desire to learn.
Um, that is an aspect of belief that not even all wiccans share. But, if you’d have read the entire thread, you’d know that. Continue with your reactionary rantings.
There’s all kinds of crazy magic out there. Take the government, for example. An FBI agent. Think Tim VcVeigh could have just walked away there when he was captured? Hell no. That FBI agent’s imagination would have become Timmy’s reality in a second.
The name of the thread is “Stupid fucks who believe in magic,” not “Stupid fucks who have religious beliefs.”
Are you kidding me? Haven’t you noticed the “creation vs. evolution” debates we’ve had in GD? Whom do you think is taking the Creation side? Angels?
But then you must understand that the only thing that can supplant a scientific theory is a betterscientific theory, not a theory that requires miracles or magic. THAT’s the difference.
No. The First Amendment says that no law shall be passed that restricts any citizen’s right to worship as he pleases. I have not done this. I couldn’t even if I wanted to. I don’t have the authority to pass laws!
If you’ll carefully read over my posts, you’ll see that I did not tell anyone they could not be a wiccan or pagan or anything else they want to be. What I’m saying is that I find their beliefs laughable at best and dangerous at worst.
I’m not going to post on any more pro-pagan threads.
Jab, if you have ever read my posts on what I believe, which I know you have…I do not practice magic. I meditate. I do believe in a Goddess. I believe in treating others as you wish to be treated. I believe in not hurting people. How the FUCK does that hurt anyone?
And what was the last comment supposed to mean? Yes, half that board (and this one, in all honesty) think I’m going to hell. Whee. They’re also kind, caring, and have been supportive through some rough times I’ve had. So clearly I’m missing the point.