No, just those who believe in magic.
[Ms. Krabappel]
“Bart Simpson, I want you to write 100 times on the blackboard ‘Science is not a religion.’”
[/Ms. Krabappel]
You believe in magic and you think I’m illogical?! :rolleyes:
Magic doesn’t deserve the dignity of civilized discussion. It ought to be ridiculed. Respect is not a birthright; it must be EARNED and it can be lost.
Then stay out of the Pit.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by jab1 *
**
I post from work, so I stay away from GD as I don’t have the time here to go searching for cites to back up my claims. However, seeing as it’s GD, I wouldn’t think attacks were going on there as much as a difference of beliefs. This thread is an outright attack. (I know, I know, this is the Pit, yada yada)
My only point I was trying to make is that for right now, we may not be able to scientifically explain these ‘miracles or magic’ but may be able to at some point in the future when our knowledge and technology advances. I’m just saying that just because science can’t prove something righ now doesn’t automatically negate its existance for me, and on some things I should learn and discover for myself rather than just accepting science’s explanation that it isn’t true because it hasn’t been proven.
For the record, I don’t believe in crystals, levitation, or most of the things known as ‘magic’ (Of course, I would like a definition, as many of the people hear have requested). But I do believe in keeping an open mind that there’s the possibility that I may be wrong.
Ok, you got me here. The Constitution forbids the government, not its people, from persecuting religions. So I’ll drop that subject since, in this light, I now have to agree that you’re right to bitch about it as you see fit. Sorry for saying you weren’t.
Sure you can. I demean the beliefs of communist, fascist, racist, and gay bashers because they deserve to be demeaned. So do beliefs that they can chant, or pray, and move mountains.
Marc
Hastur, you’ve completely lost me. I do not see how those two paragraphs respond to what I say. Where did I say that because something is considered true by a large mass of humanity it must be true?
seawitch
Science is not a religion. It is a method for determining the truth of a claim. Faith is a method for obviating the need for evidence. You may not accept the ability of the scientific method to determine fact (or ever-increasing approximations of fact) but if so, say so. At that point we’ll just have to agree to disagree (though I would ask that you show how the scientific method has failed).
Crunchy Frog
Science is not close minded. Scientists have been trying to proof the existence of god for the last 500 years. I am willing to see evidence of the existence of god, a spirit, a guiding force, or even a minor miracle. The fact that no one has yet done so is bothersome.
Yes, science may find proof of “something beyond” in 10 years. But it is pretty stupid to pre-emptively believe something hoping that someday it will be proven true. I might as well pre-emptively believe that invisible blue dragons fly the night skies of Detroit, assuming that science will someday prove it true.
I am willing to believe it, if you can show me the evidence. I am not willing to believe something just because I hope it is true.
robgruver
That is a good story, and a wise one. Why do something the hard way. But he did then show you how to move the stone with your mind right? You have since learned how to throw fireballs, but just choose not to because there are easier ways, right? Do you at least know someone that can throw fireballs? Have you seen this ability? If so, could you recommend that person to me. I’ll be happy to have this ability to demonstrated under conditions which restrict the likelihood of fraud.
I certainly hope you haven’t been told that “yes, there is magic, but we won’t be doing any because it is easier to simply use Newtonian physics.”
mighty_maxx: I’m pretty sure you are misapplying the Anthropic Principal. But you are correct in saying that I do not have the knowledge to refute the claim. If you wish I will seek out those who do and inform you of the results.
That said, if you want to remove the “Creator” to a time when our universe didn’t exist, that is fine. The Anthropic Principal applies only to the creation of the fundamental laws of our universe in the first moments of its existence. If you are willing to conced that the creator has had no role since then, I will officially list myself as agnostic.
Also, do not try to present the Anthropic Principal as established science, it is way out on the theoretical edge of physics and there is more than one flavor. The Weak Anthropic Principal states simply that this while this is a universe that seems strangely structured for the existence of life it may mean only that given enough universes popping into existence, one was bound to be friendly to life. Considering that measurements necessary for validating the Weak or Strong Anthropic Principals is a long way off, you are likely just picking those physical theories which most agree with what you already believe.
Mgibson, actually I suppose a judge could easily rule that the internet doesen’t exist in the USA and restrict free speech. But what I meant was jab1 is not protected by it as he is not on public property. Only a total idiot would not realise that I think. Because we are talking about jab1’s right to say something.
I don’t respect people who have the deluded belief that they only believe stuff after it is proven. They don’t, however it does provide a convient excuse for their actions. Because to prove anything you have to have some belief in it. Its also a very unscientific way to view the world. Really if scientists never believed anything till after it was proven then scientists would not exist because they would be utterly useless.
I think I’m being misunderstood and somewhat taken out of context here.
I never said it was. People can be close minded.
**
I’m not saying anyone should believe something because it just may one day be proven true. I was just trying to demonstrate that there’s the possibility that a person may be wrong, and having an open mind helps a person adjust to that possibility.
Now we can go back and forth poking holes in analogies all day, but that helps nothing, and I think the point I was trying to make has gotten accross. I’m not saying that science is wrong, just there’s that slim possibility that it could be.
I could be wrong in my beliefs about God. I admit that. I don’t belong to any organized religion mainly because I don’t like how most organized religions claim that they are right. Period. Everyone else is wrong. I hate that kind of attitude.
**
Fair enough. Of course, I’m not trying to convince anyone that magic is real and I hope I haven’t come off that way. As an amateur magician, to me magic is having a rigged deck of cards in your pocket or practicing sleight of hand for hours until your movements aren’t noticeable. I was just defending their right to believe what they believe without having venom spit at them.
Although I do agree with the OP in wondering why that thread was in GD anyway. It should have gone to MPSIMS. What was being debated in an Ask The ______ Guy Thread?
Um, that’s not how science works. When a scientist comes up with an idea of how something works, that’s a hypothesis. Then, he/she performs procedures to test the hypothesis. If the hypothesis can be proven to be true, it’s then called a fact. If all evidence indicates it to be true, but it can’t be proven, it’s a theory. After 350 years, gravity is still “just” a theory because we can’t prove that it holds true for all possible cases. That doesn’t mean that no one “believes” in gravity. A scientist won’t state something is a fact until it’s been proven. When someone makes a claim like, “It’s possible to levitate under your own power,” it’s not really all that unreasonable to ask for some evidence of that. It’s how science handles all hypotheses. To prove something, you don’t need belief, you need evidence.
Of course, it is unreasonable to call them a “stupid fuck” because of it. (I’m sure the “stupid fuck” percentage among those who believe in magic isn’t any higher than among Christians or athiests or Hindus or any other worldview. :D)
Just wanted to make my feelings clear on that so I’m not taken the wrong way.
Dammit, Crunchy, we are way too polite to each other when we disagree.
One of these days we’ll have to have a real knock-down drag out. Just to reaffirm our manliness.
If I misrepresented what you said, I apologize. But what I thought you had said is certainly a sentiment I’ve heard many times before. So I’ll redirect my response to the person who hypothetically said it, we’ll name that person Straw Man.
Amedeus, should I perhaps have used the analogy of a march of Orangemen through the Catholic neighbourhoods of Northern Ireland? Because marches of modern day Nazis/ Orangemen/painted pink elephants/etc. etc. all affect someone in a negative way, depending on locale and environment.
This board is home, not only to people of nil faith in the unseen, but to people who choose to live their lives with such faith, in all it’s many shapes, colours and textures.
Freedom of expression is a wonderful thing. But denigration is slander. It’s the stuff wars are made of.
Oh, BTW – may the inventor(s) of Usenet’s “Godwin’s Law” stick it right up their furry little arses.
Whoo-boy…
For what it’s worth, I’m an atheist who was a Christian for a while and a pagan for a very short while. (Yes, I read books and what-not.) I always felt it was pretty harmless, UNLESS someone used it as the center of their entire lives. Sick? Forget the doctor, hold a pretty stone and chant and make the happy feelings. Depressed? Forget medicine, hug the cross or say the rosary or whatever.
Currently, I’m on a mailing list comprised completely of people who believe they were dragons in a past life. No, really. I don’t post to it, and I wouldn’t flame them because they seem nice enough. Am I laughing at them? Hell yes. Do I think they’re putting themselves in danger with their beliefs? No, and that’s why I wouldn’t attack them.
And I think most Pagan/wiccan/alakazam type beliefs are harmless. It’s the young earth creationists and the “fundamentalist pagans” (yeah, I’ve seen some of those) who are putting folks in danger. The guys who say they’ll cure your pains with magnets or tap you on the forehead and let you walk. Those guys.
So, I propose that there be a new pit thread, entitled “Stupid Fucks Who Believe Any Damn Thing.” In other words, the people feeding the “psychic friends” industry, not just anyone who enjoys the spiritual aspect of religion. A lot of the pagan sites I’ve been to have had disclaimers (“see a doctor anyway, this is just extra help”). So I think it’s unfair to attack all pagans just because some people don’t know their ass from a tarot deck.
Just my little note… and I’ll go back into hiding for a bit now, I think.
This is not an attack on any particular religion. If someone makes the extraordinary claim that “Magic” exists, then asking them to provide evidence of such is the least we can(and should!) do.
I’ve seen the claims.
Who’s got the proof?
Jab1 you are a small minded, reactionary bigot. Yes, this is the pit, and yes you do have the right to disparage a group of people based on the beliefs of some of them. I have the right to say that you are a boil on the ass of humanity.
Thanks for assuming because I have a certain belief system I am a Stupid Fuck. No, I don’t agree with robgruver about his definition of magic, in fact, I think his assertions only serve to further discredit Wicca. Magic cannot make you levitate, or produce fire balls. Magic is just another form of prayer. I guess I’m a Stupid Fuck for calling it that though, aren’t I.
Gotta love that Stupid Fuck label. It goes really well with the Idiot one I got earlier today. Damn, it is just too bad I already bred. I should’ve offed myself sooner and done my part for the gene pool.
Let’s see now.
Magic is a form of prayer.
Magic is a frame of mind.
Magic is a part of everything.
Magic has to be dis-proven, not proven like every other extraordinary concept.
Magic is a religion, and thus doesn’t have to be proved at all.
Magic is an alternate reality.
I could go on forever, but I guess it all boils down to “I believe in it, but I don’t have to define it(or show it or describe it), and I am highly offended that you question it!”
Will someone tell me what there is to respect?
You are taking things out of concept.
jab1 was claiming that magick is not real and then demanded proof from us that it was. I think the onus is on him to prove that it does not exist. It isn’t as if any of us were attempting to convert or proselytize. He was making an assertion, and thus needs to prove it.
Treating the lot of us who do believe as if we are snake oil salespeople is demeaning and uncalled for. Why should we have to prove anything when that wasn’t even what the original thread was about? It’s not like we’re Christians on a recruiting drive.
Question all you want. Just don’t call me a STUPID FUCK because robgruver has a tenous grasp of reality.
Well, jab1, I know just how you feel. It’s the same way I feel when I see threads about ghosts in GQ. I usually bite my tongue and hope the thread will either die quickly due to lack of response or be moved to a different forum, but then I’m basically a coward and avoid confrontation.
robgruver, if you’re not prepared to have your most deeply held convictions shaken to the core, you’re probably in the wrong place. I’ve been hanging around for over two years now, and if there’s anything I’ve learned it’s
EVERYTHING I KNOW IS WRONG.
Conventional wisdom and popular beliefs are shattered here daily. Want to believe people wake up in a tub of ice with one less kidney? We won’t let you. Want to believe in UFOs and black helicopters? We’ll challenge that. Want to believe the words to “Louie, Louie” are dirty? We’ll prove you wrong. To think your spiritual beliefs are somehow inviolable is just plain silly.
The only thing I believe in is gravity[sup]*[/sup] and its opposite, levity.
[sup]*[/sup]Actually, since gravity doesn’t require my belief to operate I’m rather haphazard about believing in it.
Luna,try to get just one thing right, o.k.?
If you make an extraordinary claim, such as “Magic exists!”, “I’ve seen magic!”, or “I can do magic!”. the only person who has something to prove is you.
The game is Reality, and the rules are simple. If you state something is fact, back it up.
The initial claim was that magick doesn’t exist, which was made by jab1. But, of course, since his views fall in line with yours, he doesn’t have to prove anything does he?
No, the initial claim was the one he was responding to, that magic does exist.
And I ask again that you show me magic.
Or at least specifically define it to the point that someone besides you understands what it is supposed to be.