The initial claim in this thread was that magic doesn’t exist. This thread is a response to claims in another thread that magic does exist.
Balls back in your court, Hastur. Let’s see some proof.
But as a beginning in showing that magic likely does not exist, I direct you to the entire ouvre of failed experiments in parapsychology. If I really have to enumerate for you the massive quantities of scientifically valid literature demonstrating just how unlikely it is that magic is a real force in the universe then you just haven’t been paying attention.
What I call magic is my form of prayer. Instead of going to church toting a rosary, I hang out outside and seek to enlist the help of my Goddess. I perform rituals, usually lighting candles, burning herbs/incence, chanting or meditating and so on. I do these thing hoping for a positive change in myself, or the environment. I don’t try to fucking levitate. Magic, to me, is a form of prayer. It’s the placebo effect. The power of positve thinking. Keeping my fucking fingers crossed. I know I have the abilitly to change my own life, and my rituals direct my energy to that end. I also know I can’t float, nor can anyone else.
I am not asking anyone to believe in magic. I am just requesting that people not automatically assume that I am a drooling moron beauce of the way I pray.
Bluff called. I live in Oregon. Portland, to be precise.
But before I do any travelling, I think it only fair that you describe to us exactly what type of magic(magick? majick?) you intend to show me. I would hate to interrupt my schedule just so that you could point at the sunset and say,“How can you look at that beautiful sunset and NOT believe in Magic?”
How about I show you a series of phonemena that are amazingly well explained by the idea of atoms. So many phenomena and such solid correlation between prediction and outcome that the chance that atoms do not exist begins to approach zero.
Now, you show me a series of phenomena that are best explained by magic and a correlation between the predictions that can be made by assuming magic and the actual outcomes and we’ll talk.
Also, you may want to pick a different target. Einstein dealt, rather conclusively, with the existence of atoms a century ago.
Luna, everyone mis-types once in a while. On the other hand, if you are going to mis-use words like “magic” and say that it means the same thing as “prayer”, I don’t see how we can have an intelligent conversation.
It would be the same as my saying that Levitation can be proved, then telling people that when I jump up and down, I call that “Levitation”.
I’ve been following this thread, and I just thought I’d pop in with an observation: both sides are frothing and fuming and demanding proof from the other without providing any themselves, and thus this little discussion looks to be turning into the usual GD thread with people talking past one another without actually addressing claims.
Just something I’ve noticed.
No, I wasn’t going to, but if being “spiritually dead” releases you from considering what someone says, then it is a pretty convenient defense against having to think.
Now that is just bullshit. Science never made any such claim. Science, in fact, said that cold fusion was highly unlikely. Within two days of Pons and Fleischmann’s announcement of cold fusion, physics and chemistry labs around the world were reporting failure in their attempts to duplicate the process. Robert Park of the American Phsyical Society was on TV the evening of the announcement stating that there was no scientific reason to believe that the announcement would be validated.
Science did everything it could to convince us that cold fusion was wrong. It was scientists (who forgot use the scientific method), an eager press, opportunistic politicians, and a general society increasingly incapable of critical thought that allowed the “cold fusion” phenomenon to last more than a week.
In fact, this is an example of the open-mindedness of science. An unbelievable claim was made by reputable scientists in a public arena. Dozons of very expensive labs and very important scientists dropped everything to spend weeks duplicating experiments that they were certain would fail.
Does science go down the wrong path occasionally? Of course. But the scientific method has error correction built into it. Faith does not.
Wrong.
One side has asked for proof, which is reasonable when an extraordinary claim is made.
The other side has demanded a *dis-*proof of this extraordinary claim, which of course cannot be done.
The two sides are not equal.
This is fine, LunaSea, but if you recognize that what you are trying to do is invoke the placebo effect, do the props have any real purpose? Wouldn’t a lot of determination and will power accomplish the same thing?
Magic, as you are defining it is a mild thing. But the definition you are using is not the definition that I’ve heard from most people who use the word.
Another example, I have no problem with meditation. Meditation can be a powerful tool for clearing your mind and focusing your thoughts. But if someone wants to claim that through meditation they channel a communal “human spirit” then they are going to have back that up (if they want to tell me about it, anyway).
A couple-three years ago, I used to be fairly active on the usenet group “alt.magick”. A repeated motto from a cheerfully embattled minority there was, “Belief is error.”
In Wicca, we call it magick. Yes, with a k. I didn’t come up with it, but there it is. The alternate spelling was to differentiate between David Copperfield magic and our magick.
We call it magick that because that is what it looks like. It looks like a magic spell. It doesn’t look like I’m praying. To the average person I look like a demon worshipping witch performing a dark magic rite. We use the terms witch/Wicca and magick, beacuse if we use them about ourselves they cease to be derogatory. Along the same lines as calling myself a bitch, it doesn’t hurt when someone else does.
I use the term magick, as do other Wiccans. I think you will find most Wicca will agree with my definition of magick, not robgruver’s. Please do not hold him up as the average Wiccan. I assure you he is not.
But Hastur! You promised to show us magic if we could get to Oregon!
I was really hoping to see fireballs or rocks moved across tables (without hands) or something.
We could do it cheap. I’ll accompany Czarcasm as a second pair of eyes on the skeptical side. If you are near Portland I can stay with my sister. If you are closer to Salem, I’ll stay with my parents (Czarcasm, you can have the spare bedroom, if you wish).
Best of all, it’ll be fun! A mini-dopefest. Baglady can make buttons!
I WANT TO SEE SOME MAGIC DAMMIT!
Don’t chicken out now, you were about to provide the proof we were all asking for. And if you had convinced us, we’d have helped you apply for Randi’s reward (with a 10% filing fee for us, of course).
I never claimed I could accomplish anything through magic. I’m just trying to present my view on how it works for me, and almost all of the other Wiccans I’ve ever met IRL. I do find that the props help. They help me to focus. I have zero willpower so anything that helps is in. Plain meditation doesn’t work for me, so I use a ritual to keep me focused, as my mind tends to stray.
You may find this hard to believe, but I also consider myself atheistic. On one level I know there is no god/dess, higher power, or greater conciousness. I know that when I die I will cease to exist in total. There is, on the other hand, one part of me that always returns to Wicca. I have had too many spiritual experiences to dismiss entirely, and they point to Wicca be my true path.
This is making no sense. All I wanted to do was point out that most Wiccans are not stupid fucks. I am not going to try to defend the ones who are.
Just keep in mind that generally, generalizations are bad mmmkay?
