Stupid Social Justice Warrior Bullshit O' the Day.

Sorry, I don’t have the time or energy to teach grown people how not to be assholes. I’d rather just mock them and go about my business.

Surprisingly, I’m able to determine myself if some asshole is calling me a racist because non-racist stuff I did, or if a person is genuinely hurt by what could be racism on my part. A guy calling me racist because I told him to stop physically touching a friend of mine is the first one.

I’m also self-aware enough and smart enough to know if something I did could be construed as actual racism and take my own steps to correct it.

Then your awareness and abilities are truly beyond my own, and those of most everyone I’ve ever interacted with, since in my experience and reading those kinds of things (not the touching thing, but most other kinds of misunderstandings, miscommunications, and accusations) are misinterpreted in one way or the other all the frickin’ time.

Especially for that second paragraph. If you’re self-aware and smart enough to be 100% aware of any possible privilege you have 100% of the time, then you’re superhuman. If it’s true, we should bow down before such an incredible example of humanity.

Yes. Yes you should. :smiley:

I’m an upper middle-class, gender-typical, heterosexual white guy born in the USA. Other than my parents being rich, I have been given almost every privilege that a person could get in this world, and I am fully aware of it. It’s not that hard of a concept to understand.

And you also have that superpower so common to upper middle-class, gender-typical, heterosexual white guys (I’m one too, by the way) – you know for certain that you aren’t racist, that you don’t have any racist thoughts, that you couldn’t possibly say or do something racist or bigoted, and that if by some catastrophic mistake you did, there’s 0% chance you wouldn’t immediately recognize it. One day I had this superpower too, but I seem to have lost my certainty with age, and sadly now I think I’m entirely capable of saying or doing something racist or bigoted without realizing it, and I very much hope others will call me on it when I do so that I can learn and try to improve myself.

By “scorched earth strategy” I meant specifically the circumstance where a coworker was accusing the poster of racism. By doing that, they are making an implicit thread against your livelihood, and hell yes getting HR in the company involved as soon as possible is the proper response–shut that garbage down before it has room to fester. Cover your ass and call their bluff.

No, I wasn’t implying there is no dialog possible. What I was trying to say, perhaps ineffectively, that there was no dialog necessary. “Dialog” implies a discussion, a frank and open exchange of ideas, a conversation. Generally I reserve those for people who do not loudly, publicly, and thoroughly baselessly accuse me of being something vile. If that’s how someone opens their interaction with me then no. They don’t want a dialog, and I won’t try to engage them in one.

No. I did not “disagree” with her about the definition of “dingo”. The fact that it refers to a wild animal is objectively true. It is a fact. Not an opinion. There is nothing to disagree about. The fact that it is not a racial epithet is also objectively true. To think otherwise is factually incorrect. It is not subjective, not open to interpretation, there is no gray area in which to disagree. She was wrong. And accused a complete stranger of being something vile and despicable loudly, confrontationally, and publicly based entirely on her own ignorance. This is not a Good Thing and should be reasonably discouraged in society.

This comes perilously close to the “everyone’s a racist, even if they don’t admit it” argument.

I don’t think it’s that common. In fact, I think that racism is MORE common in upper middle-class, gender-typical, heterosexual white guys. So, I think your premise is flawed.

And just because you lose a valuable skill to have in today’s world, doesn’t mean that other people do also.

I suspect that people who can’t help but be racist sometimes use this argument as a way to deflect their personal issues onto society as a whole.

You are not the only one with privilege. I sport nearly the same bonafides, though more of a lower-middle class upbringing, but I never needed for anything.

But, we are not unique either. In fact, we are in a pretty large group. The fact that we are in a pretty large group is what gives us the privilege, we can look at the majority of other members in that group, and see that we are similar in more ways than we are different. That makes us treat each other a bit differently. I may subconsciously give you a bit more respect than I give to a black man, because you are more like me than he is. I would not be intending to be disrespectful, and I certainly don’t mean to be racist, but it would be all too easy for me to give someone less respect than he deserves because of his genetic heritage. (I am intentionally going with male pronouns, as this is about race, not gender at the moment.)

I’ve been the beneficiary of privilege quite a number of times. The bank really shouldn’t have let me keep my house back in 2010 when I was out of a job the majority of the year and falling behind on payments, but I have no doubt that it was not just the color of my skin, but my upbringing that allowed me to engage with the bank people on a familiar level that made them think that I’d be good for it, even though I had not idea how I would be. I don’t know what would have happened if I had been black, or had had a poorer education in how to deal with bureaucracies and business people, but I really don’t think they would have let me get away with it, had they not recognized something familiar in myself to them.

So, back around to my point. Ethnic minorities do in fact get treated poorly and with low respect on a daily basis because of their race. The fact that your treatment of them is not due to race, but is due to other factors is not necessarily clear to them, is actually a reasonable, if incorrect and misinformed assumption. As well, you do need to recognize that sometimes you may be treating someone differently because of their race, without realizing it yourself.

The only way to find out is to engage in an honest and level dialogue.

Perhaps my whoosh was not clear – I don’t think you have superpowers, nor do I think most of us upper-middle class yada yada white dudes do. I think, in general, we’re particularly inclined to see ourselves as not racist, and not capable of racism, when in fact we all are capable of racism and bigotry, even if we don’t bear any malice towards black people or others.

I recommend a bit of humility – even when we mean well, we still really don’t (and can’t, in general) understand what it’s like to be black in America, or Latino in America, or gay in America, or a woman in America, etc., and we should recognize this and not react with knee-jerk defensiveness if someone suggests that our understanding of something related to folks with experiences different than us might be off – even if they do so with what we deem to be harsh language. This might mean we take some unjust shit occasionally, but I’d prefer to do that than to dismiss the possibility of discussion that might improve my understanding of something.

I hope I’m not racist, and that I don’t bear any bigoted beliefs or inclinations, but I don’t think any human can know this for certain about themselves. The most I’ll say is that I strive to not say or do racist things, and I hope that if I do by mistake, someone calls me out on it so I can try to be a better person.

We’re not gonna play the “Who has more privilege?” game are we? :slight_smile:

But that’s just it. I WOULDN’T give you more respect than a black man simply because you are more like me than he is. I don’t care what color you are. I don’t care how similar you are to me. I care about whether or not you act like a moron. If you do, I don’t want to be around you. If you don’t, then cool with me, let’s drink some beers! Accusing me of being racist because I told you to stop touching a friend of mine is acting like a moron. Thus, I don’t want to be around you. There are plenty of people around who DON’T act like morons. It’s funny. I take a yearly vacation to Thailand, and 99% of the morons there are white, heterosexual guys. I barely talk to them.

Of course ethnic minorities get treated poorly and with low respect on a daily basis. Only a moron wouldn’t believe that. And the few times that I’ve been called racist have been directly linked to moronic actions of the accuser, and not anything remotely racist that I did.

But how do you know for sure? Many or likely most of the white people who I’ve witnessed say or do racist things would say this exact same thing about themselves. They’re wrong. That doesn’t mean you are necessarily, but doesn’t it give you a bit of pause that maybe you’re not quite as perfect as you think/hope you are? And at the very least, do you recognize that it would be absurd for me or anyone else to take your word for it when most people who say such things about themselves are, in fact, sometimes guilty of saying or doing racist things (which I’ll reiterate doesn’t make them monsters, or evil, or even necessarily racist people in their core – they’re just humans with a little bit of an inflated and inaccurate view of themselves)?

So, no kneeling then? :slight_smile:

I’ve never claimed to understand what it’s like to be anyone but who I am.

Can any human know anything about themselves for certain, in your opinion? For instance, I know that I will never rape anybody. I know that I will never murder anybody. I know that I will never strap a dog to a fence and beat it for not winning a dog fight. What’s the difference between knowing that and knowing whether or not you are racist?

Of course it would be absurd for you to take my word for it. You don’t know me. I’m just letting you know about me. Take it for whatever.

I’m not saying things as broad as someone is/isn’t racist in their person – just that IMO pretty much everyone is capable of inadvertently (or purposefully) saying or doing something racist or bigoted, whether or not they realize it and admit it to themselves.

The difference is between knowing you’d never torture a dog and knowing you’d never stumble over a dog by mistake, or step on a dog’s tail, or unjustly yell at a dog, or blame a dog for something when it wasn’t the dog’s fault. I’m saying that your certainty that you aren’t capable of doing or saying something racist might actually make you more likely to do so by mistake, and less likely to recognize it and correct it. Wouldn’t you rather be open to a possible correctable flaw in yourself than be certain this flaw couldn’t possibly exist?

I’m just recommending a teensy bit of humility. Otherwise, there’s no chance at improving yourself.

Maybe he is just not willing to play the game where the term “racism” has been expanded and diluted to the point that it now means, essentially, every interaction that a white person has with a non-white person, but nobody that is non-white can be racist?

What? Those two things aren’t even remotely related.

I have, at some point in my life, stumbled over a dog by mistake, stepped on a dog’s tail (by mistake), unjustly yelled at a dog, and blamed a dog for something that was the cat’s fault. Even so, I am 100% certain I would never torture a dog.

Replace the applicable words in that paragraph with references to humans and racism and it would still be true.