Subways, personal space and culture

In My Humble Opinion
1

I was among the throng on the City Hall station platform as the N train approached at 5:15 PM this evening. The train stopped with a set of doors opening right where I was standing, and upon entering the train I noticed a space among the nearly full seats.

I approached the two people at each side of the space, noting that if they each moved a few inches to each side I would be able to sit down. I asked them if I could squeeze in, and one of the men moved over to allow me to sit. The other man, despite having several inches that he could move to the side, didn’t move.

Thinking that the space the one man provided would be sufficient for me to sit down, I did so. It was a relatively snug fit, but one that anyone who has commuted by subway or bus during rush hour in New York City has experienced many times. As I took my book from my briefcase and started reading, the man to my right (who didn’t move) pulled at his overcoat he wore, the corner of which I evidently sat on as it was draped over the seat. Once again, a very common occurrence on a crowded subway.

About a minute after I had sat down, the man to my right stood up from the seat, mumbling something that sounded like “This is how an intelligent person acts?”, and grabbing the overhead “straphanger” bar. A woman standing nearby, seeing the open seat, sat down next to me.

After a few stops, the man who stood up appeared to be getting off at the next stop, but before he did so, he leaned toward me and shouted “You sat on me you pervert!” then promptly exited the subway. I looked around at the man sitting to my left and the woman sitting to my right, and they immediately averted their eyes, as not maintaining eye contact is also a common practice among New Yorkers.

So, what happened here?

One thought that came to mind, hence the inclusion of “culture” in the post title, is that the issue could have been a matter of personal space. The man was Hasidic. Hasidic Jews in NYC generally keep to themselves, having close communities in a few areas of Brooklyn. To many NYers like myself, they are strangers one sees on the street, mysterious even. My experience this evening made me wonder if there is a difference in perception of personal space in the culture. It may sound odd in a culturally diverse and dense area like NYC, but this particular man’s culture is one that generally keeps to itself. Is there a correlation with personal space and cultural isolation?

I tried looking on the internet for information concerning cultural differences in the perception of one’s personal space, including Hasidism, but found nothing, although I did learn a bit more of the culture, the most notable sites reviewing the documentary A Life Apart: Hasidism in America.

Of course, it could be that the guy was just nuts, and that my musing on my unfamiliarity with Hasidism is a red herring. As other NYers and others living in large cities with mass transit can attest to, people pack into subways and buses like sardines during rush hour, and clearly the people who subsequently occupied the spot to my right were similarly familiar with such cramped conditions. However, for some reason, this man clearly didn’t want to sit near others, as I assume now that his refusal to move when I asked was a reluctance to sit closer to the person to his right, and his standing up and shouting at me was a reaction of me sitting too close to him and/or sitting on the edge of his overcoat.

I am curious as to what others think about this. Have other NYers experienced something like this on subways or buses? Any experiences concerning encountering varying degrees of personal space are welcome, as well as speculation as to whether or not the guy was just nuts.

2

Well, I can’t comment on Hasidic Jews, but us Canadians like a lot of personal space (especially us Westerners). I wouldn’t have liked the situation you created, but I wouldn’t have yelled in your face about it. That sounds like someone’s a little on the verge of a nervous breakdown to me.

3

Are you male or female? Was the person whom he would have been touching had he moved over male or female?

Hasidic, and other ultra-orthodox Jews do not touch members of the opposite sex, unless they happen to be married to them. Perhaps one of our more knowledgable Jewish dopers could weigh in.

BTW, I think it’s hilarious that he called you a pervert.

4

Good good point about the male/female thing. I think if our OP is female, we have it explained.

Here, in Montreal, on the bus at least, I find it incredibly rude if you don’t sit down on a crowded bus. It’s wasting space.

5

At first I was going to say that maybe was visiting from a small town where strangers don’t get put in such close quarters, then I though he was being a jerk, but when I got to the part where he called you a pervert, I decided he was slightly psycho. If he can’t stand strangers brushing him, he better stay off the subways. He should probably stay out of NYC altogether.

There are definitely differences in different cultures’ sense of personal space. Growing up in an area with a large African-American and east Asian population, I had to learn early on that brushing against a black girl without saying excuse me could be grounds for a fight, while I had to accept that Asians would slam into me without any acknowledgment. Sorry, we didn’t have any Hassidic Jews where I grew up, so I can’t comment on your specific case.

6

What book were you reading? Maybe he saw you reading The Joy of Sex with Animals and was bothered by that.

It has happend to me (also a New Yorker here) were an overweight person has looked a space of about 14 inches between me and the next person and has decided to put their 36 inch wide bottom there. I usually get pretty pissed off/crushed/ or flee the seat for my life.

7

Here’s how I see it. He’s an Hasidic Jew, ie from a small insular community within a greater society (and what could be greater than NYC and, of course, it’s subway system?)

A community that considers it’s seperation from the larger society it’s mark of distinction and part of it’s superiority.

And many people in insular communities such as that don’t feel the same need to treat outsiders with the same politness as they do the real people (ones inside the community).

I don’t want to generalize but the Hasidim I’ve dealt with have always been brusk at best. I’m an outsider (and a female outsider!).

I think he felt no need to move for your benefit, and then felt offended when you squooshed him. So it’s cultural. Although not some inherent thing about personal space. I would think he’d be very different with other Hasidim.

8

It’s a NEW YORK CITY subway for Christs sake. If a person doesn’t want to be touched or squooshed during rush hour, go try a cab or something.

Personally, I’ve never had anyone shout in my face on the subway…which is good since I would probably go tell them to fuck themselves.

9

I’m male, and I was reading The Silmarillion by J.R.R. Tolkien (doing some re-reading as a warmup for the upcoming The Two Towers). Perhaps he doesn’t like elves?

I am 6 feet tall and weigh in at 165 lbs, which is fairly skinny for my height. Of course, if I was overweight, I still think I would know where I could rest my posterior and where I could not.

I’m not sure what type of perversion of which I was being accused… is there a faction of fetishists who get their kicks from sitting on coattails and reading fantasy novels? I always read books when I’m riding the subways, so I can only imagine what some people think of me.

I didn’t respond to the man’s comments because one never knows what a psycho will do, and I wasn’t sure if this man was a psycho or not…that and I was pretty much in shock from the ranting of my fellow subway rider.

10

Okay, he’s a psycho, you pervert. (I just can’t get over that.)

11

Banger - My guess is that he was just in a pissy mood. Yeah, I can imagine there being a cultural component to it, but he must have known (mustn’t he?) that taking a NYC subway at rush hour was bound to get him a little smooshed. If he can’t accept that, he needs to find an alternate form of transportation, regardless of his cultural or personal attidutes toward space.

That said, I can certainly understand someone feeling uncomfortable in a crowded subway (I experience this on a daily basis, being a stickler for personal space, myself). But it’s a matter of politeness to not make a scene, especially if the “offender” clearly meant no harm.

Anyhow, it’s an interesting question you pose, Banger, and I’m glad to see you’re taking an academic approach, rather than, say, smacking him in the head with The Silmarillion.

12

I had a similar experience about two weeks ago. I was heading home on the A train. The A typically has two flavors: either a pair of bench seats run through the entire train parallel to each other, or there are seats that fit two and three at right angles to each other. I was on the latter.

It’s a long ride home for me, as I live in Inwood. I typically read and listen to my walkman to screen out the usual irritation. But catty-corner to me, a woman was picking a fight with a larger man about her personal space. Everyone knows that these seats (which are the same as on the R train) are tiny. I am 5’7", about 140 lbs, and I still don’t fit comfortably when sitting next to other people. Nevertheless, she was heckling him to move over in various ways, to which he kept responding, “Lady, where do you want me to go?”

I had enough of this mishagas, stood up, and told the lady to take my seat.

We happened to get off at the same stop. She tried to thank me profusely, assuming that I was actually sympathetic to her nonsense about the man’s various infractions against her. By this time I was irritated enough to tell her that I relinquished my seat because I thought that standing was more pleasant than listening to her pissing and moaning. She got the point.

13

But you still haven’t addressed the question of the gender of the person on the other side of the Hasid (two seats to your right). If that person was indeed female, it could explain why he didn’t move for you in the first place and why he ultimately felt so threatened by you.

14

A man was sitting to his right.

Maeglin: Those types of trains stink; the seats that don’t have their backs against the sides of the cars don’t have enough leg room and the seating (with its indentations) is fairly cramped. The N train I took was one with real bench seats, as opposed to the 2-and-3 seats or the indentation-bench (i.e., hollowed out for one’s butt, thereby making it fairly clear, obese persons notwithstanding, whether a seat is occupied or not) seats.

As your story indicates, however, there are just some people who want to take up a lot of space so people won’t sit near them. They usually do this by spreading their elbows, sitting in a very wide-kneed position, and doing something, be it reading a paper or wearing a walkman and looking down, to ensure that there is absolutely no chance of even incidental eye contact with someone who may want to sit in the extra spot or two this person is taking up, thereby discouraging people from even approaching them to sit there.

I just find that inconsiderate to others, as a lot of people after a long day are tired and don’t feel like standing in a subway for a half hour when a perfectly good seat is available. Still, I generally give these “wide-sitters” a wide berth, as these jerks can sometimes get physically and verbally abusive. I once sat down next to one such person in a fairly packed subway with the indentation-bench seats, and when the person on the other side of me vacated her seat the wide-sitter elbowed me, tried forcing me towards the other seat with his knee, and told me to move over. When I told him I was not going to move so as to occupy two seats (not to mention be forced to sit uncomfortably on that ridge that comes up between each seat indentation), the man started cursing at me.

While I don’t mean to say that all such wide-sitters would act in such a way, this type of selfishness, which one must have to place having a few inches of extra space around oneself over another person being able to get off his or her feet at the end of a long day, is one that will not show any consideration for someone who asks to sit in the extra space or spaces the person is taking up.

From my experience I think that “wide-sitting” is almost universally a male phenomenon, as I have never seen any females do such a thing. I guess at least one female does get in fights about how much space she gets.

I’m sure that some people will think these stories are a bit funny, but these are things subway riders experience everyday.

For the most part commuters are considerate to each other, and I have seen many old men and old ladies offered seats when none were available. I have seen many people offering change to the blind old accordian player who often walks the trains of the N/R line. Most of all, most commuters realize that we’re all packing into these trains, and often it’s not even a matter of squeezing into a seat; it’s more a matter of being able to squeeze into the subway car itself. Sometimes we’re so packed in there I can’t even raise my hand high enough to hold a book before my face to read, becase it’s so packed the mere motion of one’s arm to such a position is not possible. Commuters just accept it as a fact of life when working in NYC.

I agree with those who think that the man’s reaction yesterday was an irrational one, given the fact he was on a subway during rush hour. Still, I wondered if there was possibly some sort of explanation other than that the guy was just nuts.

Kn*ckers: Like anyone else I’d rather have elbow room and open seats on each side of me, but that’s just not a reality during rush hour. As you indicate, someone who is uncomfortable with cramped conditions either has to find other forms of transportation or just deal with it.

Due to my experience with the wide-sitter I have made it a policy to avoid any situations where some possible psycho will get physically violent, so my books are solely for reading purposes…

…besides, it was a paperback.

15

I’ve had one altercation with a female wide-sitter a few years ago. She wasn’t doing the spread-knees thing, though, just had a huge rear end. She was upset that our bodies were making contact on the seat, and got vocal about it. I suggested that next time she needed to go uptown, she take her personal limousine.

16

I’ll have to remember that line for my next subway encounter!

Without the spread knees, it ain’t wide-sitting, IMO.

Of course, there’s also “side-sitting”, when a person takes up the seats at the ends of the subway cars between the car-to-car doors and the platform doors. Some cars only have two seats side by side there, and the side-sitter, almost always a younger male, will sit with his butt on one seat and his feet on the other, leaning against the wall. Not only is the side-sitter inconsiderate, but he also grew up in a household where he was never taught not to put one’s feet on the furniture!

17

Anyone who is unwilling to sit crammed closely to the people on either side (or for that matter, to stand crammed close to people on all sides), regardless of gender, age, race, etc., shoudn’t ride the NY subways during rush hours.

18

Hey people common!!! Just because I like to lay across the seat on the subway during rush hour doesn’t mean I should be persecuted!

19

I catch public transport in Melbourne on a regular basis and I’ve noticed that the femal version of wide sitting is to place a bag beside them, thus insuring that no-one can sit close to them.

20

I’ve always thought that its those people who sit there masturbating furiously on public transport that are the most selfish. I mean who wants to sit there getting elbowed repeatedley while some smelly weirdo pumps his willy?

  • Bubba.